[MBTI General] Why NFs think that they understand NTs ?

[juggernaut]

If someone tells you some idiot died jumping off the roof with a blanket around their neck because he thought he could fly, you might laugh.

If that someone is my friend talking about his dad, it takes all sorts of pinching my thigh and biting my lip to hold the laughter in. But if my mind drifts and I start to visualize him in blue and red superman pajamas... I have to leave the room and laugh it out.

Do you understand what I mean? I find humor in everything, even the most inappropriate things you can imagine. People really don't like it when I laugh at their problems.

+1

This is the story of my life.

 

[Kalach]

And yes...maybe shortwiring the system is one of the main mistakes of F's, now that you mention it. It feels odd to involve T when talking about emotions. I only use T afterwards to analyze them and see how they are relevant to the situation that caused them. Also, if I'm tired or impatient, or otherwise not feeling optimal, it's very tempting to cut through it all and just get to the bloody point, which in this case is that stupid flickering light on my emotional radar

You know what, if there was someone who noticed enough to know what was going on behind my thinking and my actions and just one day came out and said it, I think I'd probably be relieved. Someone noticed. And if they noticed that way--that is, saw what was going on behind my thinking and actions--then they are not skipping the T part. It seems like it's part of the package. Probably such things would have been embarrassing when I was younger and less sure of myself, but now that I'm older and I've got to know some of the strengths and weaknesses of my armour, I think it'd be okay.

It's when people get it wrong and persist with their version that things get annoying. And eventually very exhausting. I wear myself out on my own Te trying to be seen. Especially if I'm up against another J.


Do Fi and Fe ever grow up enough to recognise each other as real?

 

[sculpting]

If someone tells you some idiot died jumping off the roof with a blanket around their neck because he thought he could fly, you might laugh.

If that someone is my friend talking about his dad, it takes all sorts of pinching my thigh and biting my lip to hold the laughter in. But if my mind drifts and I start to visualize him in blue and red superman pajamas... I have to leave the room and laugh it out.

Do you understand what I mean? I find humor in everything, even the most inappropriate things you can imagine. People really don't like it when I laugh at their problems.

oh I see.

for me, Fi would reflect thier (perceived/projected/my understanding of) pain-I would feel it as my own pain physiologically. Thus no humor.

however for an entp you guys have to fall back on Fe I guess.

Ne makes all types of crazy funny connections with stuff.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Well, we do the same to a certain extent to see the POV of the other side. However, to have someone do it elaborately is a drag, especially if that POV is already being seen by us. I mean, I don't particularly like arguing for the sake of arguing, and if you are agreeing with me, then why are we in fact arguing? We can discuss it just for the heck of it sure, with what-if scenarios and all. But to have someone oppose me just for *fun*? Too much wasted energy, imo. It aggrevates me even, coz I can sense that your heart is not in it and you're just doing it to goad me. End result? Me leaving or blocking the conversation.

It is quite simple actually. Many times you can check the POV others this way. Plus you can hide yours in the process.
Also I have to "lie" in many situations since often my actually is quite controversial but there is no point in raising a controversy just for the sake of doing it.


Only when you master the arguments of the opposite side you are really ready to defend yours.

+1

Antisocial one likes to start these threads where he accuses a certain temperament of a behavior or way of thinking that is not isolated to the temperament.

1. There is no behaviour that is 100% typical for some temperament.

2. Well, a lot of people replies in my threads. What could suggest that these topics are not complete nonsense actually.
Try to take my OPs less literally.

 

[Salomé]

People are not destined to misunderstanding because they prefer different functions. Irl my NT friends and I don't have much of a problem understanding each other. The N link really helps with that.

Understanding concepts. N+N > N+S, no question. And NT+NF can bring each other new insights which is always interesting.

Understanding each other is a different matter. I don't really understand either of the feeling functions and so how could I properly understand someone in whom these predominate? I imagine Ti is similarly mysterious to non-practicers.

 

[sculpting]

Quote:
Originally Posted by happy puppy
okay so wait-This was in my brain all yesterday as I was playing texting with an entp. He would make Ne-Ti logical connections which I would promptly scramble with Ne-Fi insanity to lead us off in a new direction. He would then Ne-Ti connect the new pieces and I would scramble again.

Ti is pure logic. It presents facts to facts to facts for Ne to connect. They can be really clever and witty and fun, but it's factual. Can you make a Ne connection without the fact????

Fi is-well I dont know what it is-but not logical. It presents feelings, subtlties, shades of nuance for Ne to connect. pieces, parts of fluffy stuff that Ne ties together. With people it seems to present holistic stuff for Ne to connect. It skips over walls, boundaries and isnt "constrained " by logical barriers.

So Ne-Fi may figure stuff out that Ne-Ti can't?? I see this practically in troubleshooting the scientific instrument I work on. Given a problem I am way, way up high and I just sort of "feel" around until I find the piece that seems a little out of joint. Then I point to it and the problem is there. I am much better at troublshooting than most NTs for this reason.

I'm sorry Puppy, I have no idea what you are talking about. Really, I don't understand - can you clarify?

I think what you're getting at is what I wrote in that 'N and T go together thread' yesterday, but I can't be certain. If so, I have to say that my Ne feeds the Ti, not the other way around... My Ti, or your Fi, is the Ne filter.

Jeno I am going to start a new thread about this later. I read some of your stuff on the other thread and I think there are cool things here but they dont really fit under ASs original thread. I need to think more on it as well.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

1. There is no behaviour that is 100% typical for some temperament.

Right. Your threads just create that illusion.

2. Well, a lot of people replies in my threads. What could suggest that these topics are not complete nonsense actually.

Because they are general topics that anyone can add their opinion in. Not because they have a whole lot of merit.

Try to take my OPs less literally.

As soon as you start to take MBTI less literally.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

Well, you said that there was no logic in it or something.

If you espouse an exploratory position on logical grounds, and eventually decide on an opposing position, does that mean there was "no logic" in the first position?

And you're right, it's exploratory - why should I be convinced? And why do you assume that I am convinced?

I don't. And that's my point.

But then why bring it up if you are not prepared to talk about it? I know that I would never tell someone that my uncle died or my bf left me, in a casual conversation, unless I wanted to talk about it and was prepared to do so.

I wouldn't, unless someone asked me for my position on something. Then I would give it, though it might take me a while to figure out why I held that position.

jeff, how do you determine the logical connections between the values? What makes them logical if they do not have an underpinning of facts that you can call out that justify thier logical basis?

I guess my values do have "an underpinning of facts" (if I've understood that correctly) that I can call out to justify their logical basis. If they don't, sooner or later they're gone. If that means they aren't properly values, then I guess they aren't properly values.

My values are pretty sparse these days.

 

[Amargith]

It is quite simple actually. Many times you can check the POV others this way. Plus you can hide yours in the process.
Also I have to "lie" in many situations since often my actually is quite controversial but there is no point in raising a controversy just for the sake of doing it.


Only when you master the arguments of the opposite side you are really ready to defend yours.

Thanks for validating my answer then. If this is in fact what you do, I feel justified in blocking the conversation or leaving
I have no patience with liars or deceivers. Though I can see the merit in your last sentence, this type of situation is just nausiating to me and makes me wanna leave, pronto.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Thanks for validating my answer then. If this is in fact what you do, I feel justified in blocking the conversation or leaving
I have no patience with liars or deceivers. Though I can see the merit in your last sentence, this type of situation is just nausiating to me and makes me wanna leave, pronto.

Would you mind explaining why?

 

[Amargith]

You know what, if there was someone who noticed enough to know what was going on behind my thinking and my actions and just one day came out and said it, I think I'd probably be relieved. Someone noticed. And if they noticed that way--that is, saw what was going on behind my thinking and actions--then they are not skipping the T part. It seems like it's part of the package. Probably such things would have been embarrassing when I was younger and less sure of myself, but now that I'm older and I've got to know some of the strengths and weaknesses of my armour, I think it'd be okay.

It's when people get it wrong and persist with their version that things get annoying. And eventually very exhausting. I wear myself out on my own Te trying to be seen. Especially if I'm up against another J.


Do Fi and Fe ever grow up enough to recognise each other as real?

I think it's more a matter of being so similar that you forget you're different. I for instance am unable to learn German well as it is so close to my native tongue that I just speak that instead. Same for Fi and Fe. It is so similar and at the same time essentially different that we get lulled into thinking we'll understand each other and before you know it you don't do anything but clear away misunderstandings. It's exhausting, to say the least.

When I talk to an INTJ for instance, it is usually a smooth conversation with some witty sarcasm flying about and some sweet comments here and there and there's a warm intense comfortableness to it. Talking to an INTP usually involves a whole bunch of drama which can be very enjoyable but also incredibly tiring. There are times you're crazy about each other and others where you wanna kill one another. In fact, the entire concept of make-up sex was foreign to me till I met certain INTPs...

 

[Amargith]

Would you mind explaining why?

I don't waste mental energy on people who lie to me or try to deceive me. They're not worth my time.

 

[heart]

But usually there is no problem to overcome. Whenever my friends invite me over for some wine and "to talk", I bristle knowing that this will be yet another night of looking for problems, or rehashing the ones we've already talked about and solved.

That would be a drag.

Most of the time when I am with my friends we just laugh and act like we're fifteen again. If someone has a problem then fine they can vent and complain about their problems but it doesn't tend to dominate the conversation. For one thing, we don't tend to try and put on the "fix it" hat, we just let the other person have their truth about their situation and express it. If we can give help that someone needs we give it, but at our age we sort of realize that not every situation can be fixed and sometimes people just need to vent. But we don't drink wine, we usually have some silly guilty pleasure like candy corn.

Maybe we'll end up making off the wall jokes about all that too.

There are people in my life right now that I am avoiding because they are like habitual fixers and being around them is just a downer.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I don't waste mental energy on people who lie to me or try to deceive me. They're not worth my time.

What about the case where I want to be your friend since I like you but at the same time I think that you spiritual believes are crap?
Would not be wise to hide that ?
At least untill you establish a better connection.



Here is on what I was actually thinking/saying with my claims.
In my country soccer is something that has a status of something sacred. So I think that it is wise to hide the fact that I think that soccer it a complete waste of everbodys time and should be prohibited since it has a bad influence on people. What is a pure heresy over here.
If nothing this will help me with being closer to people.

 

[Salomé]

I don't waste mental energy on people who lie to me or try to deceive me. They're not worth my time.

This is key. In impersonal matters, many NTs would consider a flexible position a desirable intellectual asset. You read it as a character flaw. Where is the understanding?

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

This thread accuses Fs and Ts of quite the variety of offenses that contradict and overlap. That makes for a confusing read, but that is probably a good thing. That probably says it all.

I do understand the basic premise that it isn't especially fun to have someone make assumptions about you with certitude and then be unwilling to listen or adapt that view based on what you have to say. That is an exercise in futility.

You guys are not understanding me - they dig into me looking for problems. They assume there to be problems where there are none, or assume that I would feel an emotion about something I've already dealt with and solved. It appears to be regular, everyday bonding - looking for problems. And this is why I asked if people are projecting their emotional states onto me.

People do often project their emotional states or see you as being them in a circumstance. It is clear that happens.

That's been happening to me over the past year especially because my life drastically destabilized, changes were made, and now it is restabilizing. I've noticed some correlation with anxiety, fear of being accused of the problem, and exhibiting this sort of "advice". I learned some people are looking for me to have problems and actually feel as though they are not a true friend if they don't tell me each concern as a revelation of an actual problem. For some reason it is difficult for such a person to consider the possibility that their assessment is wrong and there can be a hurtful consequence of telling someone they have a problem that is not a fair estimate. I've also found that it is often difficult for people who think like this to hear such advice themselves and can misconstrue things in that dynamic. It results in a need for me to hide vulnerability and only discuss things when I have it under control.

I try to maintain some distance and still understand the good intentions misapplied. If I want to care about people, it requires cutting everyone a lot of slack, and refusing to take on any conclusion as certain. The people I've known for decades I still don't know. I don't know myself 100%, but do with more accuracy than I do anyone else.

 

[garbage]

What about the case where I want to be your friend since I like you but at the same time I think that you spiritual believes are crap?
Would not be wise to hide that ?
At least untill you establish a better connection.

Here is on what I was actually thinking/saying with my claims.
In my country soccer is something that has a status of something sacred. So I think that it is wise to hide the fact that I think that soccer it a complete waste of everbodys time and should be prohibited since it has a bad influence on people. What is a pure heresy over here.
If nothing this will help me with being closer to people.

There's always a way to say it tactfully or in a way that you can get your message across without looking like a heretic. People will appreciate the honesty, too.

I've got a pretty good example. My beliefs significantly differ from Christianity in that I don't believe the literal stories of the Bible and don't think that Jesus is the one true son of God. My perception of God is also significantly different than theirs, and my position on God isn't much differentiated from agnostic-flavored atheism.

But I don't hold back about my religious beliefs around my many, many Christian friends, my Christian girlfriend, and her devout family. I'm still accepted despite my differing beliefs, even in the church setting.

I've just found ways to communicate my beliefs in a way that they can understand--meeting them on their level--rather than just stating them in a blunt (which can be perceived as antagonistic) manner.

You guys are not understanding me - they dig into me looking for problems. They assume there to be problems where there are none, or assume that I would feel an emotion about something I've already dealt with and solved. It appears to be regular, everyday bonding - looking for problems. And this is why I asked if people are projecting their emotional states onto me.

Whoops.

I guess to this end and to the general point of the thread, I'll say that NFs tend to feel that NTs should be more emotional in certain scenarios just as much as NTs tend to feel that NFs shouldn't feel the emotional intensity that they do. I've seen both of these occur, but I've also seen mutual understanding between the two differing mindsets.

 

[Amargith]

What about the case where I want to be your friend since I like you but at the same time I think that you spiritual believes are crap?
Would not be wise to hide that ?
At least untill you establish a better connection.



Here is on what I was actually thinking/saying with my claims.
In my country soccer is something that has a status of something sacred. So I think that it is wise to hide the fact that I think that soccer it a complete waste of everbodys time and should be prohibited since it has a bad influence on people. What is a pure heresy over here.
If nothing this will help me with being closer to people.

There is a difference between not adamantly proclaiming that you hate soccer and completely acting like you're the biggest fan ever.

If you did want to befriend me, then ofcourse, there are things that you first have to see if they won't give friction by adamantly proclaiming them. But actually completely acting the opposite of what you believe? That would be worse imo.

This is key. In impersonal matters, many NTs would consider a flexible position a desirable intellectual asset. You read it as a character flaw. Where is the understanding?

The understanding is there. As I said, I have no problem discussing the other side and looking at it as point of interest. To me as an NF it is also vital to see why others do believe in that point of view, as I crave to understand. However, to pretend you are in fact very much in agreeance with their POV only to later say you were not, is somethign I will usually pick up on and if not, will destroy the trust we have between us when I find out.

It is tiring to constantly be looking for lies and deceit in others. Furthermore, it's not pleasant. If I need to do it with the people I consider my friends, I will opt to remove them from my circle of friends so I don't have to constantly keep an eye on them and watch them for backstabbing behavior.

 

[Virtual ghost]

There is a difference between not adamantly proclaiming that you hate soccer and completely acting like you're the biggest fan ever.

If you did want to befriend me, then ofcourse, there are things that you first have to see if they won't give friction by adamantly proclaiming them. But actually completely acting the opposite of what you believe? That would be worse imo.

Well, the soccer is something so irrelevant that it simply is not worth it.
But a few people which know me better know my position in this matters.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

If someone's words do not represent their ideas, I will notice that because it is relevant information. It's all a matter of degree, but if someone was afraid to tell me they dislike classical music, said they loved it, and I later found out otherwise, my response would be to notice they can create discrepancies in communication. I would also wonder why they struggle to assert their own ideas. I would take their communication with a grain of salt, and possibly tell them directly that I appreciate people with different likes and dislikes than mine and that it is okay to voice those because I want to get to know the real person and I'm pretty laid back about stuff like that. In the future if I wanted to be sure to know their opinion, I would either work harder than merely asking once, or would tell them that I want to know, but that all I can go by is their words and so I will need them to tell me. I'm not sure how much more I could extrapolate than that.

When I hear someone describe how that sort of communication is a deal breaker, I also wonder about their experiences and how they see that, but my conclusion is much like a grey fog. It is quite indistinct and has many possibilities, but without certainty. I guess these things don't trigger a conclusion, but can capture my interest to observe, learn, and eventually make sense of it when it happens in my personal social environment.

As an NF I have hundreds if not thousands of observations in process relating to individuals, group dynamics, and core issues about humanity. Except that it is not a game, it could be compared to playing dozens of chess games simultaneously. I have an overwhelming sense of the complexity and the unimaginable number of nuanced details. There is this sense of respect regarding how difficult it is to make determinations, but the hypothesis and strong hypothesis I create are not the result of a snap idea. If I have any degree of certainty, I have invested a tremendous amount of information gathering and analysis before I create any sense of pattern or make a statement.

edit: I'll compare it to watching the water on a lake. It is dynamic, constantly changed and interacting with the play of light on its surface. The waves are like the individuals acting on one another, but still articulating their individual presence. No one exists in isolation but is an action and reaction to those around. The larger dynamics of the lake impact the waves. There are core issues related to humanity that impact us as individuals. My thoughts are not a state of judgment because everything is a process and it is impossible to zero in on a single point and hold it responsible and attribute all power and responsibility to it. It is both an extremely detached and intimate process which is quite difficult to put into words.