User Tag List

First 374546474849 Last

Results 461 to 470 of 504

  1. #461
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    135 so/sp
    Posts
    8,697

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Because understanding someone and where they come from emotionally, doesn't mean that you agree, that you see eye to eye on them with this. Sometimes you're also torn between your own inner values and emotions they invoke and understanding the person who's violating them. And sometimes we understand that you're feeling something that motivates you to do something...but we're unsure as to the reason why and the intensity of it and want to verify if we do get what you're saying/feeling. Which results in questions from our side, or 'guesses' followed by our own thoughts on the matter, which can then result in defensiveness and miscommunication unfortunately aka a scene.




    Sigh. I'm merely using it to give you a frame of reference, so you can relate. If you wanna point a finger, that's fine, but the fact is that all people are guilty of this in some way or another, even you. I was hoping that if you recognized it in yourself, you'd understand why it happens in NFs as well.



    I admit that this is something I often say/write without thinking about it because for me the reason to do something is because I get some advantage and pleasure out of it. Now, this is true for many NTs as well, but from what I've been told it's not always that intense or important. It's also one of those things that constantly intrigues me about NTs, as it's hard to describe their 'drive' to do something sometimes. Maybe satisfaction is a better word? Or maybe sense of accomplishment? And yes, I do get the same 'I-don't-care' answer sometimes from my SO. If I push him to choose, he'll take the most logical option. Note though, that when i get this 'apathy' reading from him, I ask. And yes, it used to drive me up the wall that he could have no opinion/show no emotions whatsoever when faced with a choice. It was also very educational and intriguing. It's something I find very perculiar as I don't function that way, so it took me some time to grasp it. I always thought I was missing something, not paying attention enough etc. However, he does also *enjoy* things and those clues are very clear.
    I will reply and if you want you can reply.


    1. Why you are thorn apart in this case. Your values are what they are and I dont see the point/reason in being so sensitive about them.


    2. I now why you did that and what I said before I said exactly because of that. What means that if NT can have a flaw in logic/scientific conceptes of which they are not aware.
    Then it would be reasonable to presume that NF hava problems in in understanding people of which they are not aware.

    3. This is a good example of what I have said right now. Since you are projecting a large amout of feelings on the NT and you relate closely to him/her. But you are misunderstanding some processes.
    The reason why I am saying this is because I think you have a problem vizualizing them. But this also is realted to how expressed NT is.

    I am like your so but this trait is more expressed in me then in him.
    That is all.

  2. #462
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    Enfp
    Enneagram
    497 sx/so
    Socionics
    IEE Fi
    Posts
    14,658

    Default

    1) I'm torn at that point because although my values tell me that the person in question is wrong in their actions, I can empathise/understand their motivation. And sometimes it's a grey zone. Do I really have the right to press my values through? Doesn't the person have a right to experience those emotions and deal with them in his own way, even if I disagree with his methods, etc. You always have to balance these things out and see what's right for each situation. In order to make that decision, it is important to double check if you understood the other person right, and have all the data. Hence the questions I tend to ask at that point.

    2) My point is that we're just human, much like NTs. We're bound to screw up sometimes and not fully grasp the situation though we will certainly try. I dunno about the rest, but I'm always open to the idea that I might be wrong. And even if you give me that feedback, that you think I'm wrong, I won't always be convinced. At that point, time will tell. But that doesn't mean I didn't hear your feedback.

    3)I'm not projecting. At least not imo. When he enjoys something, I can tell. Even if I, in the same situation, don't find it amusing (example: certain cult movies). However, when he shows a certain apathy, I start Ne-ing potential states of minds coz I can't get a read besides apathy, and that's where I admit, I do project. I'm trying to intuit what I could possibly be missing and why. Sometimes I miss something coz he expresses it less pronounced than I would, coz he considers his own state of being irrelevant at the time, or simply..because there's nothing there. It's an elimination process. Which one is it? With the first two, I'm just not picking up the clues, and only once I've made sure I didn't miss anything, will I assume the third option. Of course, over the years I've learned which situations are likely to trigger which states of being in him. But I don't know this for the general NTJ population. Including you. And then indeed, as you say, there's always the fact that sometimes you just don't conceive the idea that one tiny little detail in the way they perceive the world could be so different and could affect everything so much. It's important to keep in mind who they are at all times when you interpret like this. Buthere too the data can be incomplete, the interpretation of the data could've gone wrong etc etc in order to get to the right conclusion. Hence, once more, the questions when not sure.

    I'd like to add that this is the first time ever that I've actually had to analyze what it is that I...welll, do naturally. So it's quite possible I'm skipping over things or mixing stuff together, things that I find so..natural that it doesn't occur to me that it doesn't work that way in others, so bear with me.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  3. #463

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Why NFs think that they understand NTs ?
    Its our job.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  4. #464
    Ruler of the Stars Asterion's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5 sp/sx
    Posts
    2,334

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    Its our job.
    Sounds like a rather pointless job...
    5 3 9

  5. #465
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    ^ But we love it ... who else will do it?

  6. #466

    Default

    Psychoanalysis FTW!
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  7. #467
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    I am going to make a new polarizing thread - NT's and the NF's that misunderstand them.

    It's more interesting from that perspective.

  8. #468
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    135 so/sp
    Posts
    8,697

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    Its our job.
    Well just becuse it is your job that does not mean that you have 100%
    efficiency by default.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    1) I'm torn at that point because although my values tell me that the person in question is wrong in their actions, I can empathise/understand their motivation. And sometimes it's a grey zone. Do I really have the right to press my values through? Doesn't the person have a right to experience those emotions and deal with them in his own way, even if I disagree with his methods, etc. You always have to balance these things out and see what's right for each situation. In order to make that decision, it is important to double check if you understood the other person right, and have all the data. Hence the questions I tend to ask at that point.

    2) My point is that we're just human, much like NTs. We're bound to screw up sometimes and not fully grasp the situation though we will certainly try. I dunno about the rest, but I'm always open to the idea that I might be wrong. And even if you give me that feedback, that you think I'm wrong, I won't always be convinced. At that point, time will tell. But that doesn't mean I didn't hear your feedback.

    3)I'm not projecting. At least not imo. When he enjoys something, I can tell. Even if I, in the same situation, don't find it amusing (example: certain cult movies). However, when he shows a certain apathy, I start Ne-ing potential states of minds coz I can't get a read besides apathy, and that's where I admit, I do project. I'm trying to intuit what I could possibly be missing and why. Sometimes I miss something coz he expresses it less pronounced than I would, coz he considers his own state of being irrelevant at the time, or simply..because there's nothing there. It's an elimination process. Which one is it? With the first two, I'm just not picking up the clues, and only once I've made sure I didn't miss anything, will I assume the third option. Of course, over the years I've learned which situations are likely to trigger which states of being in him. But I don't know this for the general NTJ population. Including you. And then indeed, as you say, there's always the fact that sometimes you just don't conceive the idea that one tiny little detail in the way they perceive the world could be so different and could affect everything so much. It's important to keep in mind who they are at all times when you interpret like this. Buthere too the data can be incomplete, the interpretation of the data could've gone wrong etc etc in order to get to the right conclusion. Hence, once more, the questions when not sure.

    I'd like to add that this is the first time ever that I've actually had to analyze what it is that I...welll, do naturally. So it's quite possible I'm skipping over things or mixing stuff together, things that I find so..natural that it doesn't occur to me that it doesn't work that way in others, so bear with me.
    Well the lass part of your post indicates that you are probably too over confidant in your methods.
    I am notsaing this bacause I want to undermine your self-confidence but I simply can't overlook that "the first time ever" in your post.

    I am not saing that you can get a lot of it right but you can't understand somethings if you base some analysis on "what would I do"
    Especially snce you are a very strong F. Which is because you can't picture some things and the same works for me when it comes to you.

    The main reason why many people think I am depressed is because they base their opinions on personal experiance and it looks to me that EF are first to make this conclussion. However I will admit that send vibes that can look like depression.

  9. #469
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    Enfp
    Enneagram
    497 sx/so
    Socionics
    IEE Fi
    Posts
    14,658

    Default

    Hardly. I've said repeatedly that I never assume I'm right. I check. And double check. Besides, have you really taken the time yourself to completely analyze how you think and why you draw conclusions the way you do, what exactly influences you precisely when you make a decision? It comes so natural to you that you just *do* it. I doubt you fully can explain the process and every factor that comes into it. And I think that analyzing something like the process of empathy is probably even harder than to figure out how someone logically deducts and what he uses in those deductions (his fears, his dreams, his hopes, his intellectual capacity, his past, etc). I use the methods that work for me, that experience has taught me can get me the results I need. I never claimed they were perfect however.

    And although I have given empathy and how it works a lot of thought before, there are simply things that you don't think of, again, coz they are so..basic and so natural to you, and that you discover only later on because others suddenly point them out and go...euh that's not how it works for me. It's only then that you realize that those are probably part of the equation as well.

    But we're going round and round once more. You're convinced others cannot understand you, and that their methods to do so are inadequate to the task, nor do you seem to want them to try apparently. I'll gladly respect that. So I see no further reason for me to continue this debate
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  10. #470
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    135 so/sp
    Posts
    8,697

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Hardly. I've said repeatedly that I never assume I'm right. I check. And double check. Besides, have you really taken the time yourself to completely analyze how you think and why you draw conclusions the way you do, what exactly influences you precisely when you make a decision? It comes so natural to you that you just *do* it. I doubt you fully can explain the process and every factor that comes into it. And I think that analyzing something like the process of empathy is probably even harder than to figure out how someone logically deducts and what he uses in those deductions (his fears, his dreams, his hopes, his intellectual capacity, his past, etc). I use the methods that work for me, that experience has taught me can get me the results I need. I never claimed they were perfect however.

    And although I have given empathy and how it works a lot of thought before, there are simply things that you don't think of, again, coz they are so..basic and so natural to you, and that you discover only later on because others suddenly point them out and go...euh that's not how it works for me. It's only then that you realize that those are probably part of the equation as well.

    But we're going round and round once more. You're convinced others cannot understand you, and that their methods to do so are inadequate to the task, nor do you seem to want them to try apparently. I'll gladly respect that. So I see no further reason for me to continue this debate
    Trust me I am very well aware of that. Which is because of the reason I have spend years alone. So I have analysed myself alot.
    The main reason why I did is because for years I was tring to figure out why am so different form poeple around me. (and I had years to do it)

    No I am not convinced that other do not understand me. If that is where the case this conversation owuld be completly impossible.
    The only thing I am claiming is that you don't understand some parts of me.
    Feel free to read some of my posts in the therad if you don't believe me.

Similar Threads

  1. Why people think that US has a government ?
    By Virtual ghost in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 06-07-2017, 07:38 AM
  2. Can this be the reason why Ns think that sensors are "stupid" ?
    By Virtual ghost in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 120
    Last Post: 03-10-2015, 05:02 PM
  3. Replies: 14
    Last Post: 08-26-2012, 01:55 AM
  4. [NT] Why I think that the world as we know it is doomed.
    By Virtual ghost in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 04-28-2010, 02:11 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO