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  1. #411
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Do I understand NTs?

    Yes.

    I don't necessarily look at people sideways and crazy just because they aren't exactly like me. I don't assume everyone is like me.

    I think people confuse empathy with projecting - not necessarily the same thing.

    I don't presume to understand people just because I am sensitive, I try to understand people. And fwiw, I have a number of NT friends IRL and they seem to be drawn to me and feel that I get them, that's part of the reason why we're friends (the fact that I also like them and enjoy their company is the other reason). I'm a pretty open and open-minded person, so I tend to get along with people better than "the average person". So more than "getting" people I accept people for what and who they are and where they are in their lives. NTs IRL that I am friends with appreciate that and feel comfortable around me. They even told me so. So there.

    I may rewrite this later. Bah.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

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  2. #412
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Well, I still don't quite understand the view you seem to have that your interaction here and the responses you recieved in return were really all that unusual or provocative in relation to anything else on the forum. You engaged NF on an admittedly emotional level and got responses on that level. I'd be really surprised if many of them will carry grudges. Some people even played back at you and you called them children. So then people are not sure what you want. You send out mixed messages. If you do this, you can't blame others for not understanding you. They can only know you from what you say and do. If you play with people, you must expect to be toyed with back.

    But if you play games with people, you really have to expect to get some negative reactions in return because not everyone likes to play or be played with. If the game is more important to you than getting along with others then that is a decision you make and accept the fallout.

    Many introverts, even INF, get the same comments about being cold, uninvolved, bad attitude thing applied to them and assumptions made about their true nature which may not be true. They get the "I feel sorry for him/her because they are so withdrawn" Some of this is just part of dealing with humans and human nature and why it is a relief to find a place to chat with other introverts.

    I was too vague.

    Here I was playing games but in real life I don't do things I do here.
    But in real life I play a different kinds of games. For example I can be rude in order to kill the communiation since I am not interested in the subject.
    I am trying to be nice but if people don't take no for an answer I become rude. Which is just a strategy, there is no personal element in it.
    I do this only to my familiy since I know that I can get away with it. My social contacts are too percious for this.
    But I am pretty sure I am not the only one who do this but I am pretty sure I do it more often then others.

    I know that I should expect a rection if you play "bad games".


    The biggest problem here is that I am quite detached from everybody so I don't really play games that much and if I do that is to help me having efficacity and detachent in one.

  3. #413
    Senior Member Xellotath's Avatar
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    Why do we think we understand you?
    Merely the nature of our cognitive tools.

    Consider how a [stereotypical] NT relates to people: In terms of logic and efficiency. Now, picture the NT labels someone as illogical, that's that. You cannot make propositions beyond those dichotomous standards. In other words, there is a clear, rational and distinct limit to your explanatory power.

    Now consider how a [stereotypical] NF would relate to people: In terms of emotions. Emotions provide a far wider spectrum of possibilities and combinations of states. Now, couple this with the firm belief that there is no such thing as "feeling nothing" [I use the term "belief" because I'm not sure what the grounds are for this assumption - Not psychic to know for sure] and the result is that we're always making assumptions about people's emotional states, because there is -always- an explanation.

    To you it might seem as insanity, because of the natural boundaries of your preferred mode of operation.
    To us [or at least me], the claim of being "unemotional" is nothing but wishful thinking.

    Side effects of inherent biases, I'm afraid.
    We will never really understand each other.

  4. #414
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xellotath View Post
    Why do we think we understand you?
    Merely the nature of our cognitive tools.

    Consider how a [stereotypical] NT relates to people: In terms of logic and efficiency. Now, picture the NT labels someone as illogical, that's that. You cannot make propositions beyond those dichotomous standards. In other words, there is a clear, rational and distinct limit to your explanatory power.

    Now consider how a [stereotypical] NF would relate to people: In terms of emotions. Emotions provide a far wider spectrum of possibilities and combinations of states. Now, couple this with the firm belief that there is no such thing as "feeling nothing" [I use the term "belief" because I'm not sure what the grounds are for this assumption - Not psychic to know for sure] and the result is that we're always making assumptions about people's emotional states, because there is -always- an explanation.

    To you it might seem as insanity, because of the natural boundaries of your preferred mode of operation.
    To us [or at least me], the claim of being "unemotional" is nothing but wishful thinking.

    Side effects of inherent biases, I'm afraid.
    We will never really understand each other.


    The problem is that feeling nothing is a very blur concept and each since side has a subjective opinion about it.
    Plus both groups have 4 subgroups.


    On the other hand if you really understand then why you get annoyed by our approach in many situations?
    Especially if you don't know about MBTI or something similar ?


    I am not saying that you can't understand a great deal about NTs but I think you are too confident when it comes to this.


    Another things is that a complex theoretical concept/ideas can be hard to understand for some NFs. What means that you can have problems with understanding of why we act they way we act. You can register that we are interested in that field but many of our choices will be quite hard to folow/understand if you don't know enought about the subject.


    What means that your your understanding is shallow.


    Also it depends about what kind of a NT we are talking about here.
    Since there is a difference between more balanced NT and very abstract and counter-intuitive NT.

    It happened to me that an F in real life asks me "Do you even feel anything ?'"
    Which is probably because they have a problem in picking up emotional vibes from me.

  5. #415
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    On the other hand if you really understand then why you get annoyed by our approach in many situations?
    Especially if you don't know about MBTI or something similar ?
    Because understanding and dealing with are two different things
    Because understanding doesn't mean it won't still annoy you or be completely different to how you would approach things and therefor uncomfortable, and because we do still have different priorities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I am not saying that you can't understand a great deal about NTs but I think you are too confident when it comes to this.
    So are NT's in their logical deduction, often. People make mistakes or get complacent, especially when tired, bored or distracted for instance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Another things is that a complex theoretical concept/ideas can be hard to understand for some NFs. What means that you can have problems with understanding of why we act they way we act. You can register that we are interested in that field but many of our choices will be quite hard to folow/understand if you don't know enought about the subject.


    What means that your your understanding is shallow
    True, at least our understanding of the subject at hand can be shallow. You as a person however, that is another thing alltogether. What we *can* register, is your passion for the subject, how much it means to you and sometimes why and in what way you enjoy it. Any action you take based on your gut, instinct or passion for the subject basically. We never claimed to understand you completely, and all aspects of what it is to be an NT. Just the part that drives you, or that affects you emotionally in some way, that's what we tend to notice and relate to.
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  6. #416
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Because understanding and dealing with are two different things
    Because understanding doesn't mean it won't still annoy you or be completely different to how you would approach things and therefor uncomfortable, and because we do still have different priorities.
    To you they probably are but to me those two are something quite similar.
    I mean why making a scene if you understand me.
    But I am open towards the possibility that my picture is incomplete.


    So are NT's in their logical deduction, often. People make mistakes or get complacent, especially when tired, bored or distracted for instance.
    Typical NF argument.
    It does not matter if NTs can this or that. The point is that NFs are more likely to fail in this then they would like to admit.
    Which is not a big deal.


    True, at least our understanding of the subject at hand can be shallow. You as a person however, that is another thing alltogether. What we *can* register, is your passion for the subject, how much it means to you and sometimes why and in what way you enjoy it. Any action you take based on your gut, instinct or passion for the subject basically. We never claimed to understand you completely, and all aspects of what it is to be an NT. Just the part that drives you, or that affects you emotionally in some way, that's what we tend to notice and relate to.
    Well if majority of NFs (Fs) thinks this way then it is trully obvious why we have problem in comunication.

    The things is I AM my subjects for the most part.
    I have already made posts about this.
    The problems can appear because you think that we like something because we do this or that often .


    You have no idea how many problems I have in life because I don't have a clear opinion about something. Which is because of my underdeveloped Fi. Sometimes you just have to make a choice and nither option seems as really good to you. So in the end you make your chioce which is something you don't care about. But large amount of people will presume that you identify with your choice. When it comes to simple everyday choices I don't know what to do. So make a temporery value system so that I can just continues with my life by making a choice.
    You are saying that you are dating INTJ I am sure that you have encountered "apathy" plenty of times. I am the same, it is just that this tendency is more expressed in me.




    Many times it look to me that an F gets hurt just by looking at how I bash my "values". Which is because they are not my values.
    People seem not to understand that I don't relate to most things. Even if I have to deal with them.

    Same is with arguments. I can hold some postition but I do it only because I must have position (since I am alive). Even if that postion is called "I dont care".

    But if I find a better postion/idea I will throw my last opinion into garbage.
    I can identify with something one day, think over night and tomorrow say to everybody "I disagree".


    As a person I dont value journey, just a end result. Which is one of the main reasons why I can look like that I don't know how to enjoy in life. Which is in a way true.


    Things are not that much black and white as the post says but for the most part I function like this.

  7. #417
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Is pity like peanut butter? 'Cuz I have some of that.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  8. #418
    WTF is this dude saying? A Schnitzel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    Is pity like peanut butter? 'Cuz I have some of that.
    Pity is easier to get off. Less sticky if you'd believe it.
    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    sheesh humans! for realz

  9. #419
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Schnitzel View Post
    Pity is easier to get off. Less sticky if you'd believe it.
    Is that a fact, Oh Schnitzel of the ENFJ Crewz?

    Figures. We used to give the horses pills by squirting them in peanut butter on the roof of their mouths. Rather hilarious to look at. Sort of like NFs pitying NTs.

    Is pity like peanut butter? 'Cuz I have some of that.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
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    AIS Holland code
    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  10. #420
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    To you they probably are but to me those two are something quite similar.
    I mean why making a scene if you understand me.
    But I am open towards the possibility that my picture is incomplete.




    Typical NF argument.
    It does not matter if NTs can this or that. The point is that NFs are more likely to fail in this then they would like to admit.
    Which is not a big deal.




    Well if majority of NFs (Fs) thinks this way then it is trully obvious why we have problem in comunication.

    The things is I AM my subjects for the most part.
    I have already made posts about this.
    The problems can appear because you think that we like something because we do this or that often .


    You have no idea how many problems I have in life because I don't have a clear opinion about something. Which is because of my underdeveloped Fi. Sometimes you just have to make a choice and nither option seems as really good to you. So in the end you make your chioce which is something you don't care about. But large amount of people will presume that you identify with your choice. When it comes to simple everyday choices I don't know what to do. So make a temporery value system so that I can just continues with my life by making a choice.
    You are saying that you are dating INTJ I am sure that you have encountered "apathy" plenty of times. I am the same, it is just that this tendency is more expressed in me.




    Many times it look to me that an F gets hurt just by looking at how I bash my "values". Which is because they are not my values.
    People seem not to understand that I don't relate to most things. Even if I have to deal with them.

    Same is with arguments. I can hold some postition but I do it only because I must have position (since I am alive). Even if that postion is called "I dont care".

    But if I find a better postion/idea I will throw my last opinion into garbage.
    I can identify with something one day, think over night and tomorrow say to everybody "I disagree".


    As a person I dont value journey, just a end result. Which is one of the main reasons why I can look like that I don't know how to enjoy in life. Which is in a way true.


    Things are not that much black and white as the post says but for the most part I function like this.
    so...okay but...what's the bloody point? what is the objective in this discussion. i'd like to help but i just don't know what you want.

    because it sounds like you are confused why we value our way of relating...does it bother you that we can only sense how you feel and not know what you think? because...backatcha...that should be the lesson. just realize your limitation as we realize ours and accept that it's different....not less than...just different.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

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