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  1. #301
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Hey you just edited your post above too just as I was going to reply - cheater!

    (Came in for some string and saw your addition.)

    You bet your ass that was an assumption I just made. (Actually it was more like conjecture or extrapolation, but whatever.)

    Congrats on picking it up.

  2. #302
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    This is the point. Everyone does make assumptions. It's the moral conviction which will not listen to reason that can be hard to swallow.
    This is a great sentence btw. And you are right; we are creatures full of assumptions, ALL.

    Let me turn around part of your quotation above for fun and reflection even:

    It's the logical conviction that will not take into account the human element that can be hard to swallow.

  3. #303
    Phoenix Incarnate Sentura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Saying it three times doesn't make it any truer.
    what, that you make assumptions about NFs? care to reread your old posts?
    i hunt INXPs for bounty
    FUNCTION ORDER FOR THOSE THAT CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHAT ENXP MEANS: Ne > Ni > Fi=Ti > *

    ...people tell me i have wildfires in my eyes

  4. #304
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    They do that all the time. It's so embarrassing. They tend to see and judge everything in terms of purity of motivation.

    The worst part about it is that they made an implicit moral judgment about how it's acceptable to collect information that other people might not share. Even if he is doing that, it doesn't hurt anyone.

    This is why the NTs always win. I tell you, they're holding us back.

    (Yes, I'm generalizing very, very badly. The nature of type tends to require that.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    And don't forget my similar little exchange with PeaceBaby.

    NFP: (points out possibility that OP is farming for material)
    NFJ: You're making us look stupid by looking at everything in terms of purity!
    NFP: No, those are your values. You interpreted my comment as being within that moral framework, so it must be your own.
    NFJ: Those aren't my values, it's just that you having those values was just the only reason I could think of you would say that. So if neither of us has those values, then we've both misconstrued each other. Great, we're both idiots. The NTs are right about us.
    NFP: No, we're not. Everyone reads motivations into things. NTs aren't as smart as people think, anyway.

    So, it doesn't just happen between NF and NT...
    What with the "us" and being embrassed by the actions of other feelers? Are we individuals here or a many headed hydra? Why should you be embrassed by the actions of other people? To me that sounds like too close an association between type (which is just an artificial construct) and true self.

    I also don't understand this "NT always win." There is no winning or losing here. There is no right or wrong. People are just discussing differences of seeing the world.

    If AO really wants to learn about people to get along with them better, then it does him good to see the reactions of NF to his declaration that he's probing/provoking him for information. It doesn't mean he is capable of "getting" why they react the way they do or if he even cares, but at least he gets the oppurtunity to see raw, live reactions to his thoughts. Online interaction does that for a person in an honest and priceless way.

    ..

  5. #305
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Maybe us NFs should let this thread die? Let them fight each other a bit? I dunno, it doesn't seem like anything productive will come out of this as much as we try. Don't think they're interested in actually furthering understanding. All I've seen is whining about how we're illogical, oversensitive and judgemental really.

    But, if you're able to get through to them, kudos, really!
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  6. #306
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
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    I think this thread thread should be stapled to the front page!! IT IS IMMORTAL

  7. #307
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    What with the "us" and being embrassed by the actions of other feelers? Are we individuals here or a many headed hydra? Why should you be embrassed by the actions of other people?
    We're individuals, but we're seen as a many-headed hydra by others. Blanket statements are often made about "NFs" being a certain way. Since we're judged as a group, I want to influence the perception of that group in a positive way (or rather avoid letting it be influenced in a negative way).

    I also don't understand this "NT always win." There is no winning or losing here. There is no right or wrong. People are just discussing differences of seeing the world.
    That's a good point. It's just that the NTs tend to correctly tear apart more shoddy arguments made by NFs in a thread than the other way around, and they get an easy victory with some of the things certain NFPs (not you, your insights are pretty good) say. Some of them feel like they've "won" because of this, and sometimes I get a little jealous of their "victory."

    It's probably a Te/Fe thing for the most part. You're probably too good a person to understand such feelings. :blushing:

  8. #308
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    We're individuals, but we're seen as a many-headed hydra by others. Blanket statements are often made about "NFs" being a certain way. Since we're judged as a group, I want to influence the perception of that group in a positive way.
    The onus is on those judging us as one body, not us. And the world will always find a way to judge. There's nothing that can be done about that, but don't have to let it define us as individuals.



    That's a good point. It's just that the NTs tend to correctly tear apart more shoddy arguments made by NFs in a thread than the other way around, and they get an easy victory with some of the things certain NFPs (not you, your insights are pretty good) say. Some of them feel like they've "won" because of this, and sometimes I get a little jealous of their "victory."
    There's no victory to be had here though. It's not about winning or losing, it's all just expression of point of view. They may "feel" like they've "won" but that's just their viewpoint, it means nothing beyond their own mind and point of view.

    It's probably a Te/Fe thing for the most part. You're probably too good a person to understand such feelings. :blushing:

    I doubt I am too good but rather I refuse to let others define the terms of my experience and I hope that they won't let me define their terms either.

    ...

  9. #309
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    The onus is on those judging us as one body, not us. And the world will always find a way to judge. There's nothing that can be done about that, but don't have to let it define us as individuals.
    Yeah, I know that deep down... but sometimes I just get sick of being accused of things because of what people similar to me only in a very broad way do.


    There's no victory to be had here though. It's not about winning or losing, it's all just expression of point of view. They may "feel" like they've "won" but that's just their viewpoint, it means nothing beyond their own mind and point of view.
    True... but I have a tendency to unconsciously adopt (or try to adopt) another's point of view when communicating with them. I guess it's just hard for me not to care about the other person's mind and point of view, because they might be seeing something I don't that's important.



    I doubt I am too good but rather I refuse to let others define the terms of my experience and I hope that they won't let me define their terms either.

    ...
    You're very stubborn and able to insist on viewing things in terms of self-expression even when the environment is set up to view them in terms of debate. That's rather interesting...

  10. #310
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    When NTs make assumptions, they tend to a) state them and b) don't feel personally invested in them. They are willing to sacrifice those assumptions as more information becomes available.
    Shall we then monitor the behavior of NTs to see if they fit that...assumption of yours, and see if it's true?

    Obviously we'd need some sort of subjective criteria to try and detect an NTs personal investment....I mean, it's not like NTs are capable of "sore thumb" drama...and we all know drama is the only real means of expressing personal investment....it might be reaaally tricky...


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