[MBTI General] Why NFs think that they understand NTs ?

[Domino]

Never fear, PeaceBaby, for I am not so much for peace as you are, and will gladly take this thread out to the woodpile! *loads the shotgun* It's got to be this way, Old Yeller! You can't keep foaming on the chil'rens!

 

[Virtual ghost]

But we CAN read minds ya know ...

I think the trouble occurs when an NF can't really figure out what the issue is when one is sensed and therefore tries to extrapolate or speculate based on their own filters, their own experiences. That's the error.

That being said, I have learned to trust intuition because it is folly to ignore messages received in the first place. I don't want to post the many examples I have of such occasions, so you'll have to take my word on that.

Amargith, you have really held in here to try to explain intuition & empathy and for that I send you

AS-one, you can't intellectualize everything, so it is folly to try to dissect this further. But I do believe you are trying to understand, and that is admirable.

So ya, let's hope this thread drifts off, not to be resurrected again.

I am curious why do you think this thread should stop ?
I ask since you are holding this position from the strart.

When I started this thread(s) I knew that I will be able to get everything for this thread(s) but I am making some understandings here.


Do you see this thread as a conflict ?

 

[Amargith]

Thnx Peacebaby, I wanted this thread to work so much, as I too would love to see this issue resolved and know how to handle it, but maybe the gap is too big to bridge, I dunno. AO, the reason I for one wouldn't mind for this thing to die is because it's frigging draining to have these type of conversations. On the other hand, I was hoping it would lead to understanding between the two so yeah, I know I helped keep it alive
However, talking about emotions and feelings and having them then put through the logic processor is just..yeah, let's just say that logic wasn't made to judge empathy. In fact, it's quite an inadequate tool for it. It's like having a butcher perform surgery, imo.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Thnx Peacebaby, I wanted this thread to work so much, as I too would love to see this issue resolved and know how to handle it, but maybe the gap is too big to bridge, I dunno. AO, the reason I for one wouldn't mind for this thing to die is because it's frigging draining to have these type of conversations. On the other hand, I was hoping it would lead to understanding between the two so yeah, I know I helped keep it alive
However, talking about emotions and feelings and having them then put through the logic processor is just..yeah, let's just say that logic wasn't made to judge empathy. In fact, it's quite an inadequate tool for it. It's like having a butcher perform surgery, imo.

This is because the therad keeps getting at genaral NT-NF discussion and you so you end up with nothing. Since everything here is individual by a quite extensive degree.
I mean how can we understand anything if we are not talking about anything?
Most ot of this thread are arguments on the personal level.


If you want understanding ask me a question. (personal or impersonal)

 

[PeaceBaby]

Never fear, PeaceBaby, for I am not so much for peace as you are, and will gladly take this thread out to the woodpile! *loads the shotgun* It's got to be this way, Old Yeller! You can't keep foaming on the chil'rens!

LMAO

I am curious why do you think this thread should stop ?
I ask since you are holding this position from the strart.

Thank you for noticing.

I just see it as very circular. You have received the same answer in many different iterations now. Let's pretend you are color-blind. It's like me trying to explain "red" to you. I could describe many different ways "red" looks, feels and even tastes like, but ultimately you can't see that color. (You don't even mind, since you can't see it anyway.) But you desire to know more about it, intellectually. Except "red" isn't just intellectual, it's experiential too.

Within this thread there is already a great deal of info to help you create a frame of reference. And no other posters new to this thread will invest the time to truly read through the WHOLE thing, so they will miss all the explanations etc. upon which you based the OP. It's like starting over and over again all the time, each time the post pops up. And because the initial questions were posited in a ... slightly deprecating manner, it makes an NF feel like they must defend themselves, instead of simply explain.

That being said, I do laud your efforts to reach out. And perhaps I shouldn't be impatient with the circularity of it. I hope it is helpful to you.

Thnx Peacebaby, I wanted this thread to work so much, as I too would love to see this issue resolved and know how to handle it, but maybe the gap is too big to bridge, I dunno. AO, the reason I for one wouldn't mind for this thing to die is because it's frigging draining to have these type of conversations. On the other hand, I was hoping it would lead to understanding between the two so yeah, I know I helped keep it alive
However, talking about emotions and feelings and having them then put through the logic processor is just..yeah, let's just say that logic wasn't made to judge empathy. In fact, it's quite an inadequate tool for it. It's like having a butcher perform surgery, imo.

I don't think the gap is too wide, but I think since we all deal with different stuff throughout a lifetime, AS-one, your time to understand this issue will likely be when you face it IRL.

Everyone, proceed as you see fit. AS-one, you can even ask me specifics if you wish and I shall try to be as illuminating as possible too.

 

[mortabunt]

NF's rarely have a good understanding of NT's. It's like a blueprint for a pigmalion project that they do in their heads.

 

[mortabunt]

Let's get this to 50 posts!

 

[Silent Stars]

NF's rarely have a good understanding of NT's.

I understand the NTs I've known in person quite well.

 

[Virtual ghost]

The thread got resurrected so I will pop another question.

When NF says " I have to sort my feeling out."

What does that actually mean ?

 

[Silent Stars]

Well, it could mean very different things depending on the context...

 

[garbage]

When NF says " I have to sort my feeling out."

What does that actually mean ?

Likely, they're feeling some emotions and wish to better understand what's caused them. Let them do so; they can factor this new information into their decisions to make them more reasonable.

But such a process might take time.

 

[amelie]

Along the same line, what does it mean when an NT says "I have to check with my feelings?" Wow. That's a foreign concept to me; in my world, feelings just "are." Seriously, can one of you NT's help me out w/ that?

 

[TaylorS]

Idealist

Play the game of Masquerade when they feel they have not been or
cannot continue to be authentic, benevolent, and empathetic. Variants
include:

-- Mind Reader: claim that they know what others are really thinking,
feeling and/or wanting. Project their own thoughts/desires on to
others, often attributing negative motives, ie., that others are out
to get them. May even contend that others are reading their minds.
Take everything as personal when it has nothing to do with them.

-- Martyr: sacrifice themselves for a higher cause or principle, or
for the needs and wants of another. May voluntarily endure suffering
or hardship to impress others of their goodness and purity.

-- Grasshopper: keep hopping from one topic to another, to keep the
conversation away from sensitive issues. Avoid talking about what
really bothers them by pretending to be bothered by something else.

-- Statue: Lose any degree of their motor and/or sensory functioning
and may experience partial or full paralysis, blindness, and or
deafness. This cannot be traced to any organic cause.

-- Forgetful: completely forget whatever is unpleasant from their
past
or present -- develop amnesia of painful moments. Can also forget
their identity and even take on a new one.

-- Twitch: Demonstrate an unusal increase in motor activity that
cannot be traced to an organic cause. May exhibit tics or spasms,
verbal outburts, outpouring of repressed negative thoughts and
feelings. Once started, cannot stop.

Oh God, that fits me to a T.

 

[Silent Stars]

hmm....I don't think I fit any of those.

 

[mortabunt]

I understand the NTs I've known in person quite well.

From a logic standpoint, they beg to differ. ALmost always, you misconstrue them in a meaningful motivatin somehow. NF's not all people are alike. NF's we are not all fundamentally good.

 

[Amargith]

LOL, ok it's ironic that logic can be used to deduct someone's point of view, but feelings can not, mort. Sorry, that's a no go. If you're going to tell us that we cannot possible know who you are by intuiting your feelings, then you cannot possibly know who they are by logically deducting conclusions. Or for that matter, do that with NFs..which happens plenty

 

[Silent Stars]

From a logic standpoint, they beg to differ. ALmost always, you misconstrue them in a meaningful motivatin somehow. NF's not all people are alike. NF's we are not all fundamentally good.

They have told me themselves that I understand them. I will also add that most, if not all, of my close NT friends who I know online have said the same to me as well. I'm pretty sure they'd know if I understand them or not. Surely they are not all lying to me.

 

[mortabunt]

LOL, ok it's ironic that logic can be used to deduct someone's point of view, but feelings can not, mort. Sorry, that's a no go. If you're going to tell us that we cannot possible know who you are by intuiting your feelings, then you cannot possibly know who they are by logically deducting conclusions. Or for that matter, do that with NFs..which happens plenty

Amy, people's emotions can be completely unpredictable. I call logic a more accurate way of predicting emotions because NF's have a tendancy to project their own ideas onto other people. I had my INFJ friend trying to project his idea that I did not hate a particuarly douchey ESTP onto me. He also tried to convince me that humans are basically good. NF's are basically good, but other types can be much less angelic. SP's will do anything for fun. SJ's will do anything for authority. NT's will do anything if it is reasonably justified. NF's do good because they want to help. It also hurts them to hurt others.

 

[Amargith]

Amy, people's emotions can be completely unpredictable. I call logic a more accurate way of predicting emotions because NF's have a tendancy to project their own ideas onto other people. I had my INFJ friend trying to project his idea that I did not hate a particuarly douchey ESTP onto me. He also tried to convince me that humans are basically good. NF's are basically good, but other types can be much less angelic. SP's will do anything for fun. SJ's will do anything for authority. NT's will do anything if it is reasonably justified. NF's do good because they want to help. It also hurts them to hurt others.

Does it occur to you that you may 'feel' this way, but that doesn't mean it is actually true for those who actually like using F and are more proficient at it? As for having your 'logic' intuited, maybe you can do that to greater accuracy with other NTs, as we often can with feelings in other NFs. I've had more than once put a 'logic' on me that they felt had to be the way I reasoned as they didn't see another option. Well...lemme tell you that my particular brand of 'logic' often baffles most of the NTs I get across. They get it wrong too. Very much so. HOwever, if they're not too jaded to admit they were wrong, they'll take a closer look and give me more insight in that logic (fill in the gaps and correct the flaws as it were), then I ever could imagine. A feeler can do the same with emotions, from what I've seen and experienced.

Your way works for you because you are good at employing logic. Hence you use it for everything..even for things it shouldn't be used for, such as intuiting feelings. But it works, to certain degree, and only in some cases. However, using actual F for intuiting feelings is going to yield way better and more profound insights than logic ever could, if used properly and done well.

 

[mortabunt]

The fact is that I have an INFJ friend who keeps on trying to project emotions on to me that I'm not feeling. He tried to make me think that I didn't hate a certain ESTP Rower, and that positive thinking helps. It doesn't; it just hurts more when a problem gets through your defences because you are unprepared for it.