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  1. #111
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    You know what, if there was someone who noticed enough to know what was going on behind my thinking and my actions and just one day came out and said it, I think I'd probably be relieved. Someone noticed. And if they noticed that way--that is, saw what was going on behind my thinking and actions--then they are not skipping the T part. It seems like it's part of the package. Probably such things would have been embarrassing when I was younger and less sure of myself, but now that I'm older and I've got to know some of the strengths and weaknesses of my armour, I think it'd be okay.

    It's when people get it wrong and persist with their version that things get annoying. And eventually very exhausting. I wear myself out on my own Te trying to be seen. Especially if I'm up against another J.


    Do Fi and Fe ever grow up enough to recognise each other as real?
    I think it's more a matter of being so similar that you forget you're different. I for instance am unable to learn German well as it is so close to my native tongue that I just speak that instead. Same for Fi and Fe. It is so similar and at the same time essentially different that we get lulled into thinking we'll understand each other and before you know it you don't do anything but clear away misunderstandings. It's exhausting, to say the least.

    When I talk to an INTJ for instance, it is usually a smooth conversation with some witty sarcasm flying about and some sweet comments here and there and there's a warm intense comfortableness to it. Talking to an INTP usually involves a whole bunch of drama which can be very enjoyable but also incredibly tiring. There are times you're crazy about each other and others where you wanna kill one another. In fact, the entire concept of make-up sex was foreign to me till I met certain INTPs...
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  2. #112
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Would you mind explaining why?
    I don't waste mental energy on people who lie to me or try to deceive me. They're not worth my time.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    But usually there is no problem to overcome. Whenever my friends invite me over for some wine and "to talk", I bristle knowing that this will be yet another night of looking for problems, or rehashing the ones we've already talked about and solved.
    That would be a drag.

    Most of the time when I am with my friends we just laugh and act like we're fifteen again. If someone has a problem then fine they can vent and complain about their problems but it doesn't tend to dominate the conversation. For one thing, we don't tend to try and put on the "fix it" hat, we just let the other person have their truth about their situation and express it. If we can give help that someone needs we give it, but at our age we sort of realize that not every situation can be fixed and sometimes people just need to vent. But we don't drink wine, we usually have some silly guilty pleasure like candy corn.

    Maybe we'll end up making off the wall jokes about all that too.

    There are people in my life right now that I am avoiding because they are like habitual fixers and being around them is just a downer.

  4. #114
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I don't waste mental energy on people who lie to me or try to deceive me. They're not worth my time.
    What about the case where I want to be your friend since I like you but at the same time I think that you spiritual believes are crap?
    Would not be wise to hide that ?
    At least untill you establish a better connection.



    Here is on what I was actually thinking/saying with my claims.
    In my country soccer is something that has a status of something sacred. So I think that it is wise to hide the fact that I think that soccer it a complete waste of everbodys time and should be prohibited since it has a bad influence on people. What is a pure heresy over here.
    If nothing this will help me with being closer to people.

  5. #115
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I don't waste mental energy on people who lie to me or try to deceive me. They're not worth my time.
    This is key. In impersonal matters, many NTs would consider a flexible position a desirable intellectual asset. You read it as a character flaw. Where is the understanding?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #116
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    This thread accuses Fs and Ts of quite the variety of offenses that contradict and overlap. That makes for a confusing read, but that is probably a good thing. That probably says it all.

    I do understand the basic premise that it isn't especially fun to have someone make assumptions about you with certitude and then be unwilling to listen or adapt that view based on what you have to say. That is an exercise in futility.

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    You guys are not understanding me - they dig into me looking for problems. They assume there to be problems where there are none, or assume that I would feel an emotion about something I've already dealt with and solved. It appears to be regular, everyday bonding - looking for problems. And this is why I asked if people are projecting their emotional states onto me.
    People do often project their emotional states or see you as being them in a circumstance. It is clear that happens.

    That's been happening to me over the past year especially because my life drastically destabilized, changes were made, and now it is restabilizing. I've noticed some correlation with anxiety, fear of being accused of the problem, and exhibiting this sort of "advice". I learned some people are looking for me to have problems and actually feel as though they are not a true friend if they don't tell me each concern as a revelation of an actual problem. For some reason it is difficult for such a person to consider the possibility that their assessment is wrong and there can be a hurtful consequence of telling someone they have a problem that is not a fair estimate. I've also found that it is often difficult for people who think like this to hear such advice themselves and can misconstrue things in that dynamic. It results in a need for me to hide vulnerability and only discuss things when I have it under control.

    I try to maintain some distance and still understand the good intentions misapplied. If I want to care about people, it requires cutting everyone a lot of slack, and refusing to take on any conclusion as certain. The people I've known for decades I still don't know. I don't know myself 100%, but do with more accuracy than I do anyone else.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    What about the case where I want to be your friend since I like you but at the same time I think that you spiritual believes are crap?
    Would not be wise to hide that ?
    At least untill you establish a better connection.

    Here is on what I was actually thinking/saying with my claims.
    In my country soccer is something that has a status of something sacred. So I think that it is wise to hide the fact that I think that soccer it a complete waste of everbodys time and should be prohibited since it has a bad influence on people. What is a pure heresy over here.
    If nothing this will help me with being closer to people.
    There's always a way to say it tactfully or in a way that you can get your message across without looking like a heretic. People will appreciate the honesty, too.

    I've got a pretty good example. My beliefs significantly differ from Christianity in that I don't believe the literal stories of the Bible and don't think that Jesus is the one true son of God. My perception of God is also significantly different than theirs, and my position on God isn't much differentiated from agnostic-flavored atheism.

    But I don't hold back about my religious beliefs around my many, many Christian friends, my Christian girlfriend, and her devout family. I'm still accepted despite my differing beliefs, even in the church setting.

    I've just found ways to communicate my beliefs in a way that they can understand--meeting them on their level--rather than just stating them in a blunt (which can be perceived as antagonistic) manner.

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    You guys are not understanding me - they dig into me looking for problems. They assume there to be problems where there are none, or assume that I would feel an emotion about something I've already dealt with and solved. It appears to be regular, everyday bonding - looking for problems. And this is why I asked if people are projecting their emotional states onto me.
    Whoops.

    I guess to this end and to the general point of the thread, I'll say that NFs tend to feel that NTs should be more emotional in certain scenarios just as much as NTs tend to feel that NFs shouldn't feel the emotional intensity that they do. I've seen both of these occur, but I've also seen mutual understanding between the two differing mindsets.

  8. #118
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    What about the case where I want to be your friend since I like you but at the same time I think that you spiritual believes are crap?
    Would not be wise to hide that ?
    At least untill you establish a better connection.



    Here is on what I was actually thinking/saying with my claims.
    In my country soccer is something that has a status of something sacred. So I think that it is wise to hide the fact that I think that soccer it a complete waste of everbodys time and should be prohibited since it has a bad influence on people. What is a pure heresy over here.
    If nothing this will help me with being closer to people.
    There is a difference between not adamantly proclaiming that you hate soccer and completely acting like you're the biggest fan ever.

    If you did want to befriend me, then ofcourse, there are things that you first have to see if they won't give friction by adamantly proclaiming them. But actually completely acting the opposite of what you believe? That would be worse imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    This is key. In impersonal matters, many NTs would consider a flexible position a desirable intellectual asset. You read it as a character flaw. Where is the understanding?
    The understanding is there. As I said, I have no problem discussing the other side and looking at it as point of interest. To me as an NF it is also vital to see why others do believe in that point of view, as I crave to understand. However, to pretend you are in fact very much in agreeance with their POV only to later say you were not, is somethign I will usually pick up on and if not, will destroy the trust we have between us when I find out.

    It is tiring to constantly be looking for lies and deceit in others. Furthermore, it's not pleasant. If I need to do it with the people I consider my friends, I will opt to remove them from my circle of friends so I don't have to constantly keep an eye on them and watch them for backstabbing behavior.
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  9. #119
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    There is a difference between not adamantly proclaiming that you hate soccer and completely acting like you're the biggest fan ever.

    If you did want to befriend me, then ofcourse, there are things that you first have to see if they won't give friction by adamantly proclaiming them. But actually completely acting the opposite of what you believe? That would be worse imo.

    Well, the soccer is something so irrelevant that it simply is not worth it.
    But a few people which know me better know my position in this matters.

  10. #120
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    If someone's words do not represent their ideas, I will notice that because it is relevant information. It's all a matter of degree, but if someone was afraid to tell me they dislike classical music, said they loved it, and I later found out otherwise, my response would be to notice they can create discrepancies in communication. I would also wonder why they struggle to assert their own ideas. I would take their communication with a grain of salt, and possibly tell them directly that I appreciate people with different likes and dislikes than mine and that it is okay to voice those because I want to get to know the real person and I'm pretty laid back about stuff like that. In the future if I wanted to be sure to know their opinion, I would either work harder than merely asking once, or would tell them that I want to know, but that all I can go by is their words and so I will need them to tell me. I'm not sure how much more I could extrapolate than that.

    When I hear someone describe how that sort of communication is a deal breaker, I also wonder about their experiences and how they see that, but my conclusion is much like a grey fog. It is quite indistinct and has many possibilities, but without certainty. I guess these things don't trigger a conclusion, but can capture my interest to observe, learn, and eventually make sense of it when it happens in my personal social environment.

    As an NF I have hundreds if not thousands of observations in process relating to individuals, group dynamics, and core issues about humanity. Except that it is not a game, it could be compared to playing dozens of chess games simultaneously. I have an overwhelming sense of the complexity and the unimaginable number of nuanced details. There is this sense of respect regarding how difficult it is to make determinations, but the hypothesis and strong hypothesis I create are not the result of a snap idea. If I have any degree of certainty, I have invested a tremendous amount of information gathering and analysis before I create any sense of pattern or make a statement.

    edit: I'll compare it to watching the water on a lake. It is dynamic, constantly changed and interacting with the play of light on its surface. The waves are like the individuals acting on one another, but still articulating their individual presence. No one exists in isolation but is an action and reaction to those around. The larger dynamics of the lake impact the waves. There are core issues related to humanity that impact us as individuals. My thoughts are not a state of judgment because everything is a process and it is impossible to zero in on a single point and hold it responsible and attribute all power and responsibility to it. It is both an extremely detached and intimate process which is quite difficult to put into words.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

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