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  1. #31
    Self sustaining supernova Zoom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I think morality has to be somewhat irrational, because it has to prevent people from taking otherwise logically acceptable actions. If you consider Machiavellianism to be moral (which I don't), that might be an exception.

    ...

    Yeah, it is interesting that people try to use logic to justify their morality, yet it's still clear that the logic is serving the morality and not the other way around. If you believe in morality much at all, you're better off just admitting to yourself and everyone else that you're an irrational person and care about people.
    How is it illogical to include the welfare of others into your viewpoint or as a factor when making decisions? Having different priorities doesn't make one any less rational a person than you, does it?

    Oh, and in terms of preventing people from making otherwise logical decisions, if you are speaking of when systems of nebulous belief - such as a religion forbidding a rape victim from getting an abortion (obviously extreme example) - I agree that it gets in the way. But a concern for one's own consideration of what is a good code of conduct - not a church's, or culture's, but a logical look at what you deem important and 'good' - that can assist in making logical decisions that take into account the fact that you are human and much more complex than a computer.

    Also, wouldn't it depend on what type of rationality or philosophy of thought you are coming from? I don't even know the deeper topics of philosophy in regards to the human mind, but aren't there libraries of material on the subject of what motivates humans and how to approach logic itself?

    Edit: For some reason it didn't show up when I refreshed, so I reposted... then it became a double post. Had to delete the first one.

  2. #32
    heart on fire
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    ^^ If you are responding to cat's gestures, what are you responding to? What generates those gestures? Certainly not higher thought. So then what is it?

    Mammals are pure emotion, pure feeling without the restraint of higher thought.

  3. #33
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I did? How is that? Forgive me for being oblivious here.
    You asked why she believed the animal could experience feelings, and then went on to say that you concern yourself with it's feelings because it can look at you and gesture and everything.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  4. #34
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I did? How is that? Forgive me for being oblivious here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Where did that notion come from?
    I'm just curious as to why you believe it can experience such feelings.
    I've just never come across that idea before, is all.

    For the record, though, I do concern myself with a cat's feelings. I mean, it can look at me and gesture and everything.
    Where did your notion come from?

  5. #35
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    ^^ If you are responding to cat's gestures, what are you responding to? What generates those gestures? Certainly not higher thought. So then what is it?
    I guess... the cat's emotions? I guess I just respond to a cat's emotions more easily than a bird's, because cats are so expressive and easy to relate to.
    Mammals are pure emotion, pure feeling without the restraint of higher thought.
    Humans are mammals. Cats are mammals. I guess I see your point, they're both rather emotion-ridden sorts of things. So, because of this, we should realize that we (consciously or unconsciously) assume everything has emotions, except perhaps inanimate objects, and they're not even above suspicion.

    I just kind of realized that I have the odd tendency of assuming something only has emotions if it expresses them in a way I can relate to.

    Okay, I get it now. Thanks.

  6. #36
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I guess... the cat's emotions? I guess I just respond to a cat's emotions more easily than a bird's, because cats are so expressive and easy to relate to.
    I used to think this about birds until I saw a real bird person dealing with and communicating with their bird. Like they train them to tug them on the ear when they need to relieve themselves and this way they can go all around the house on the shoulder of the person without mishaps. And the birds do seem to communicate with their person. So I changed my opinion on the feelings of birds.

  7. #37
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Someone I once worked with had a parrot that would say "Oh shit!" every time their cat walked into the room...
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

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    I accept no responsibility, what so ever, for the fact that I exist; I do, however, accept full responsibility for what I do while I exist.

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  8. #38
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I don't see why certain strong feelings have to be equated with a moral view. My moral view often adjusts my strong feelings actually. Within my moral sphere there is leeway for different views though, and sometimes my view will clash with another's and neither of us are necessarily being immoral in our reasoning.

    I don't think animals have complex feelings in the way people do. I don't think you can "hurt their feelings". I do think that they have instinctual desires, experience fear, and can be unsettled, and I think laughing at an innocent creature in that state shows an insensitive streak. It's not about my cat's feelings, it's about that person's attitude and my feelings. That's what made me indignant. Why are they laughing at my cat that is upset. I saw someone who might not be compassionate towards a person who is upset or scared either. Their action was not something I viewed as immoral either, just rude .
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  9. #39
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Questions of the whether animals are capable of complex emotions aside, I totally get what Heart is on about - I'm the same. I wouldn't say I was a fluffy hysterically emotional sort but for some reason I have an inexplicably inherent sympathy for the feelings of all sorts creatures and things. Its difficult to explain without making me sound like a nutter . Its an intrinsic, instinctive unconscious impression that all things have some sort of emotional quality, admittedly, mostly of the imagined, projected kind. I have real trouble throwing things away because of this. If I accidently break something I was given as a child, even if I don't have a particular love of it, I will be upset and struggle to throw the pieces out. The best that I can explain it is, it feels like its destroying and discarding part of my childhood and disrespecting the person who gave it to me etc etc - and I end up racked with feelings of guilt. As I've said in other threads, INFPs see meaning in everything

    Qre:us, it might be that your mum feels sensitive about what is hers to protect and defend. She may see that bird as a part of what defines her, it is something she loves and cares about and for people to laugh and make comments about it would, by extension, be perceived as a indirect attack on her. She wants to keep the bird out of it so she doesn't have to explain or justify the behaviour of the bird, and therefore, herself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Yes....and this raises an intriguing question, we seem to come across very often on this forum:

    * can morality be rational? Can [subjective] morality be rational?

    I gave tongue-in-cheek funny examples...to kinda stretch the points to obvious 'irrationality'...but, then it falls back on rationalizing through the morality itself, which brings us back to doe a deer the subjective evaluation of morality (Fi+Ne), meh....

    (humour is so subjective)
    I think morality can be rational, believe me I've taken philosophy and ethics classes. In those classes you hade to provide logical step-by-step argument as to why something is ethical or not.

  10. #40
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    OMG, I say things like that.
    I once said to a pathologist who was being very unco-operative "I guess you'll be explaining to the patient's grieving family why we couldn't issue a particular drug that could have saved thier life."
    It was a question of money, you see....The drug costs $500 a gram, and for it to be effective you need about 6grms. It was life and death.
    What you rather have; a three thousand dollar debt, or a dead family member?
    I know which one I'd have. So I think Qre:us, you have us pegged.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

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