[MBTI General] Dealing with (N)TJ work environments

[Scott N Denver]

Hello all!

To put this topic in a little bit of context, I am an engineer by current profession, a former "laser research physicist", and spent a lot of time in grad school. All of those are/were extremely NT/TJ/NTJ environments. As in "look, someone who isn't an INTJ?!?!?!?" While one might initially think that research should be like a total ENTP playfield, in all of my experience its actually EXTREMELY INTJ with a dash of INTP, a smidgeon of ENTJ, and maybe maybe maybe an ENTP somewhere, far away, that you only see once in a while when passing in the hall. [My background is mostly physics, other fields are definitely much less INTJ populated. I'll bet I've been several places that were 75% comprised of INTJ's]. So my questions is "How do we as NF's deal with working in TJ environments?" If you wish to refine to NTJ environments in particular please feel free to do so. Realistically, most people that get selected for management/leadership tend to be TJ's, so I'm expecting that many people should be able to respond from personal experiences, even if you don't have a very math/technical background or work environemnt.

I think it noteworthy to point out that I've almost never had problems dealing with ISTJ's. In my experience they tend to see that you are trying and making progress and that suits them fine so they don't generally feel any need to nitpick/refine how you do things. I've seen ESTJ's go that way sometimes, or else be very critical of how you do things. In my experience it's the NTJ's that seem to constantly be very critical. Or perhaps its just physics NTJ's that seem to really ooze the critical vibes???

Responses?

For other NF's who might be in research, what general field are you in and how would you describe the feel of it? Does if feel NTish, NFish, both? Do you feel comfortable, accepted, like you belong?

 

[Gengar]

First of all, I seriously have to admire you for going into the engineering profession.

I think the most important thing is to make yourself competent (which I'm sure you are).

But apart from that, I had to deal with INTJs by masking myself. This means fighting objectivity with objectivity. When I went around them, I'd purge myself of my emotions for the time being. For some reason, that gains respect and a bit of trust from INTJs. I don't really see the logic behind it, but it works for me :S Just let them work by themselves, and when you have to work with them, just remain somewhat emotionless for that time and tell them you're fine if you split the job up.

I tend to avoid ENTJs at all costs (no offence), I don't know how to deal with them.

I never had much trouble with ISTJs, ENTPs, and INTPs either. They tend to be quite easy-going.

 

[BlackCat]

Unhealthy TJ types are a nightmare to work with... in any way. My sympathies.

For NTJs just show that you're competent in your work and it should be ok. A well rounded ENTJ would respect you for being competent at your job if this was a strictly work relationship, same goes for INTJ.

 

[Scott N Denver]

Yes, good inputs. Perhaps I should have been more clear, I was not trying to ask about "how do you present yourself" while working in TJ environments, but feel free to talk about that if you like. I will say I've met NTJ's that you were golden with once you demonstrated adequate competence and was okay with that, but I've definitely met other NTJ's that see to have a force field of "thou shalt not interfere with me, present emotions/personableness in my presence, nor expect emotions/personableness from me". I don't even wanna think how many conversations I've been around to the affect of "people are incompetent" "[whoever] is so stupid and dumb" "all people are idiots" "society is just a bunch of lame dumb idiots that parrot the idiotic, pointless, stupid actions/thoughts/feelings of other lame/dumb/stupid people" "people are no better/smarter than lemmings" "the world would be better off if all stupid people just killed themselves" etc. But I'm getting off track...

I was thinking more along the lines of "how do you keep your NFness" or your "FPness" or just your F, or how do you get a chance to use/flex/demonstrate your F side, or how do you deal with such a T environment? How did you make it doable/survivable as a long term endeavor? How do you keep from feeling like your being twisted from an NF into an NT or into a TJ?

I am reminded of the line in Kroeger and Thuesen's "Type Talk" about "although as an NFP , she may find the world of engineering foreign, even hostile turf".

And if engineering is supposedly a tough go, man it has NOTHING on physics or physics culture!

 

[BlackCat]

All you can do is ignore it really... And continue suppressing it. But don't hold back something if it must be done just because you're an F, but you know this. You still need to do your job well. Don't let this stop you from doing that.

My suggestion would be to find an INTP to make friends with, since you mentioned having INTPs around. They have been great for me for work and friendship, and they aren't really intimidated by your showing of Fi like unbalanced TJs are.

 

[Gengar]

Well if you really want to slip in NFness, just do it subtedly during lunch breaks. And be confident when you do it. :O

 

[Scott N Denver]

At every job I've had, I've tried to get to meet and get to know and learn about and be on good terms with each person. I've had friends with all the NT types including INTJ's, and a number of people have commented about how friendly I am and that I make a point to meet new people and check in with people I already know. At my current job, there is a historical core of NT personnel, but we also have a LOT of IST's, and even a decent number of SF's. I believe I am 1 of 3 NF's there. I have many friends at my current work, and have had many at my previous jobs. I find that people that I am not friends with its usually because of their choice, and those people are overwhelmingly TJ's. Still being NF and Fi, I want things to work better and be more harmonious!

I read somewhere that Fi and Te are mutually antagonistic functions, as well as Fe and Ti being a mutually antagonistic pair of functions. In my experience I'd totally agree with that. I find that many NTJ's seem to have an extremely strong independent streaks along the lines of "this is what I'm doing, get out of my way, don't expect me to do things in a different way or to conform to the expectations/hopes/desires/feelings of others!" Hyper-individualistic, strong or extreme uncomfortableness with the presence of the expression of emotions, and needing everything to be ordered/structured are some other traits I've seen in many TJ's and NTJ's in particular. "Don't impede on my freedom!, you better demonstrate competence!, don't expect emotions from me!" might as well be 3 defining phrases for them.

Again, feel free to focus on NTJ's in particular, but I'm trying to generalize I bit more to __TJ's, in part since people are more likely to have more work experience with them.

If someone wanted to condense the point of this thread down to a single sentence, I'd phrase it as "How does one make a long term go of surviving in a __TJ work environment?" I'm sure there are far more TJ work environments than there are NTJ work environments and that as NF's we've generally encountered far more TJ environments than NTJ ones. IME, NF's generally run far far far away as quickly as possible from NTJ environments. And for many good reasons. No wonder why I was like usually the ONLY NF around...

 

[TaylorS]

I have a love-hate relationship with TJ enviroments. On one hand I like the order, routine, and clearly defined roles and lines of authority because of my Asperger's. On the other hand I get really pissed when people's feelings get stepped on, especially when it's in the name of "efficiency" and "profit".

I think the person who invented the term "Human Resources" deserves to be sent to Gitmo and be waterboarded; I hate it when TJs treat others as mere cogs in the machine to be exploited for profit rather then treated as individuals with their own wants, needs, desires, and dreams. People should NEVER be treated as mere means to some end, individuals are ends in themselves.

 

[Kalach]

Mere cogs?

Without the cog there is no machine. So from a task focus point of view, they're not "mere." Importance of the person measured by "What have you to contribute?" rather than "What's your feeling?"

Wanna make a competition of FJ values versus TJ values? Both will lose.


As for surviving in a TJ work environment... is this question asked as a working element of that environment or as a whole person with thoughts and dreams and wishes that (*gasp!*) exist outside of work too?


This is a kinda naive observation but INFPs being all an INFP can be tend to expect INTJs to be more authoritatively active than the INTJs usually want to be.

 

[Frank]

Hello all!

To put this topic in a little bit of context, I am an engineer by current profession, a former "laser research physicist", and spent a lot of time in grad school. All of those are/were extremely NT/TJ/NTJ environments. As in "look, someone who isn't an INTJ?!?!?!?" While one might initially think that research should be like a total ENTP playfield, in all of my experience its actually EXTREMELY INTJ with a dash of INTP, a smidgeon of ENTJ, and maybe maybe maybe an ENTP somewhere, far away, that you only see once in a while when passing in the hall. [My background is mostly physics, other fields are definitely much less INTJ populated. I'll bet I've been several places that were 75% comprised of INTJ's]. So my questions is "How do we as NF's deal with working in TJ environments?" If you wish to refine to NTJ environments in particular please feel free to do so. Realistically, most people that get selected for management/leadership tend to be TJ's, so I'm expecting that many people should be able to respond from personal experiences, even if you don't have a very math/technical background or work environemnt.

I think it noteworthy to point out that I've almost never had problems dealing with ISTJ's. In my experience they tend to see that you are trying and making progress and that suits them fine so they don't generally feel any need to nitpick/refine how you do things. I've seen ESTJ's go that way sometimes, or else be very critical of how you do things. In my experience it's the NTJ's that seem to constantly be very critical. Or perhaps its just physics NTJ's that seem to really ooze the critical vibes???

Responses?

For other NF's who might be in research, what general field are you in and how would you describe the feel of it? Does if feel NTish, NFish, both? Do you feel comfortable, accepted, like you belong?

Be good at what you do, or working to be good, honest and commited to the goal. Thats generally all we ask of others in working situations.

 

[Scott N Denver]

I'm sorry, what did you just say????

Perhaps what you meant to say was "INTJ's, being independent and always trying to further there plans and schemes, expect INFPs to be more proactive without guidance or input and less emotional and spontaneous than INFP's natrually are?"

Or did you maybe intend to say INTJ's being "authoritatively active" takes away from the time that they could be thinking about their plans/schemes/projects which is what they would rather be doing anyways? "Why do work when you could just think" or some such thing right?

the question is about "as a whole person...outside of work too"

 

[Frank]

I have a love-hate relationship with TJ enviroments. On one hand I like the order, routine, and clearly defined roles and lines of authority because of my Asperger's. On the other hand I get really pissed when people's feelings get stepped on, especially when it's in the name of "efficiency" and "profit".
I think the person who invented the term "Human Resources" deserves to be sent to Gitmo and be waterboarded; I hate it when TJs treat others as mere cogs in the machine to be exploited for profit rather then treated as individuals with their own wants, needs, desires, and dreams. People should NEVER be treated as mere means to some end, individuals are ends in themselves.

I get what your saying in the bolded portions but from our perspective efficiency and profit is why we are there. Feelings are gone in an hour. Inefficiency and lack of profit can sink the whole ship.

In project/work situations people are means to an end, even ourselves. We are there to accomplish something and usually it is not to help each other find our individuality. We have family and close friends for that.

 

[Kalach]

Just an observation. Around INFPs I feel pressure to be more organisational, take more authority, have more immediate practical solutions and directions.

Give answers, in other words. And I'm not a Te-dom so it's tiring.


It's exhausting trying to be E for other people. I want people to work for themselves, and their contribution is what it is. It's better if their contribution is on the money and they made it that way for themselves.

And once work is done, then it's fine and good, even perhaps necessary, to play. Play, being human, is the reward for finishing work.

That's all I got.




Actually, it's kinda fun if one can work and be human at the same time. Work comes first, but.

 

[Frank]

I'm sorry, what did you just say????

Perhaps what you meant to say was "INTJ's, being independent and always trying to further there plans and schemes, expect INFPs to be more proactive without guidance or input and less emotional and spontaneous than INFP's natrually are?"

Or did you maybe intend to say INTJ's being "authoritatively active" takes away from the time that they could be thinking about their plans/schemes/projects which is what they would rather be doing anyways? "Why do work when you could just think" or some such thing right?

the question is about "as a whole person...outside of work too"[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure if this is directed at me but yeah do those things in the work situation. Unless of course your plan is to usurp them and install your preferred work culture. In regards to the bolded portion, when you condensed the thread down to one line you stated something to the affect of surviving long term in a work environment. Outside of work, be yourself.

 

[Uytuun]

Make friends with one or two outside of work if you can...just ask them to a film or whatever, or suggest a film season ticket so it's a recurring (and structured ) thing. I think we're generally more pleasant people outside of the work environment...or we show certain different sides to our personality. Even INTJs enjoy work more with friends by their side (provided they don't come running to their office with dumb questions constantly )...at least this is the case for me. You will feel more included and might learn more about their psyche...they might learn more about your strengths and translate them to other TJs.

P.S.: don't give in to the odd INFP whine reflex and we will try to phrase our criticism less bluntly, deal?

 

[Scott N Denver]

Kalach, When I first read your statement "This is a kinda naive observation but INFPs being all an INFP can be tend to expect INTJs to be more authoritatively active than the INTJs usually want to be," I immediately thought of one particular INTJ that I had dealt with who seemed to really enjoy directing others, which is why I immediately thought your statement sounded weird. Having thought about it some more later, I can see how what you said is probably the case. My experience with that one particular INTJ overshadowed my memories of a broader cross section of INTJ's at the time that I made my reply. Also, I would like to point out that in general I am not lacking in direction of what to do or how to do it. At the times when I do need direction/guidance I go ask, get an answer, and then go start implementing/performing the answer. That may very well still not be as self-directed and independent as an NTJ would like of someone else, but in my experience STJ's find it far more than adequate [frequently praiseworthy in my experience], and let's face it most people aren't NTJ's. I often laugh when I think what it would be like if we had lots of SFP's or ESF's... Research environments are known for being EXTREMELY INT environments. Even those who aren't are frequently only borderline E or S in my experience.

In this thread I was particularly hoping for input from fellow NF's. Perhaps the phrases that I am using to describe people, perhaps your seeing them as whining, whereas for me I'm trying to give examples/qualities/experiences that other NF's could relate to since I am most interested in input from other NF's. For what it is worth, I am not trying to whine. If I was, I would say other things in other ways, perhaps in the "hate an INT" or "NT emotional blockheadesness" threads. Or perhaps someone could make a "the lackings and inadequacies of (I)NTJ's", but then again someone could make a "the lackings and inadequaices of ____" for any of the types. IME many MBTI books list weaknesses/not-strengths of each type, and in particular the MBTI and the workplace books that I've seen definitely do. Personally, I especially recommend Donna Dunning's What's your type of career?

I am definitely open to NT or TJ feedback, and I appreciate your inputs. Perhaps for the NT/TJ responders I should rephrase my question as "How can a NF maintain/preserve/express their sense of NF self while working in extreme (N)TJ environments?" Does that make more sense or seemed better phrased from an NT perspective?

We all bring skills and strengths to the table, but when people feel like they cant be or cant express themselves, then those individuals probably aren't bringing their skills and strengths to the table. One would think that from a management/leadership angle, the more skills and strengths being brought to the table the better [within reasonable limits and assuming things could functionally coexist]. However, perhaps this is not so. After all, research and say marketing or sales are two rather different fields and the skill/personality requirements of one are quite different from the other.

Thanks for all the input and let's keep it coming. :hi: Perhaps more NF's will respond as well...

 

[TaylorS]

Mere cogs?

Without the cog there is no machine. So from a task focus point of view, they're not "mere." Importance of the person measured by "What have you to contribute?" rather than "What's your feeling?"

People are not cogs and society is not a machine. People are sapient entities that are ends unto themselves, cogs are not.

 

[Frank]

Kalach, When I first read your statement "This is a kinda naive observation but INFPs being all an INFP can be tend to expect INTJs to be more authoritatively active than the INTJs usually want to be," I immediately thought of one particular INTJ that I had dealt with who seemed to really enjoy directing others, which is why I immediately thought your statement sounded weird. Having thought about it some more later, I can see how what you said is probably the case. My experience with that one particular INTJ overshadowed my memories of a broader cross section of INTJ's at the time that I made my reply. Also, I would like to point out that in general I am not lacking in direction of what to do or how to do it. At the times when I do need direction/guidance I go ask, get an answer, and then go start implementing/performing the answer. That may very well still not be as self-directed and independent as an NTJ would like of someone else, but in my experience STJ's find it far more than adequate [frequently praiseworthy in my experience], and let's face it most people aren't NTJ's. I often laugh when I think what it would be like if we had lots of SFP's or ESF's... Research environments are known for being EXTREMELY INT environments. Even those who aren't are frequently only borderline E or S in my experience.

In this thread I was particularly hoping for input from fellow NF's. Perhaps the phrases that I am using to describe people, perhaps your seeing them as whining, whereas for me I'm trying to give examples/qualities/experiences that other NF's could relate to since I am most interested in input from other NF's. For what it is worth, I am not trying to whine. If I was, I would say other things in other ways, perhaps in the "hate an INT" or "NT emotional blockheadesness" threads. Or perhaps someone could make a "the lackings and inadequacies of (I)NTJ's", but then again someone could make a "the lackings and inadequaices of ____" for any of the types. IME many MBTI books list weaknesses/not-strengths of each type, and in particular the MBTI and the workplace books that I've seen definitely do. Personally, I especially recommend Donna Dunning's What's your type of career?

I am definitely open to NT or TJ feedback, and I appreciate your inputs. Perhaps for the NT/TJ responders I should rephrase my question as "How can a NF maintain/preserve/express their sense of NF self while working in extreme (N)TJ environments?" Does that make more sense or seemed better phrased from an NT perspective?

We all bring skills and strengths to the table, but when people feel like they cant be or cant express themselves, then those individuals probably aren't bringing their skills and strengths to the table. One would think that from a management/leadership angle, the more skills and strengths being brought to the table the better [within reasonable limits and assuming things could functionally coexist]. However, perhaps this is not so. After all, research and say marketing or sales are two rather different fields and the skill/personality requirements of one are quite different from the other.

Thanks for all the input and let's keep it coming. :hi: Perhaps more NF's will respond as well...

In response to the bolded portion, as always it comes down to efficiency. We will never completely understand your deep interest in people or desire to go with your feelings just as you will most likely never completely comprehend the satisfaction we get from creating controlled efficient systems. This does not however mean we don't respect you. We, at least me, are very tolerant of different people and their individual quirks and often find them refreshing as long as the work related competence is also there. In projects/ business we are very goal focused. From our perspective feelings and such have very little place in a work environment unless they are being unfairly and unreasonably hurt. Similar to how our goal focused logic is out of place in many areas that require a softer touch. Outside of work I think you will find we are much more relaxed and our need to control and create our environment is seriously tempered. I know you had asked for more nf feedback but hopefully this somewhat feeble attempt at showing you our perspective will make it easier to adapt.

 

[Kalach]

People are not cogs and society is not a machine. People are sapient entities that are ends unto themselves, cogs are not.

Dude, seriously?

"What have you to contribute?" is a question. A task focus implies the existence of a task. It doesn't imply the non-existence of other things. And those other things that don't not exist, they get asked what they can contribute. They're still allowed their inalienable right to have meaning just by being.


At least, that's what we tell the oversight committee.

 

[Frank]

Dude, seriously?

"What have you to contribute?" is a question. A task focus implies the existence of a task. It doesn't imply the non-existence of other things. And those other things that don't not exist, they get asked what they can contribute. They're still allowed their inalienable right to have meaning just by being.


At least, that's what we tell the oversight committee.

Lol. I have to admit that last part gave me such a warm "feeling"