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  1. #11
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, what did you just say????

    Perhaps what you meant to say was "INTJ's, being independent and always trying to further there plans and schemes, expect INFPs to be more proactive without guidance or input and less emotional and spontaneous than INFP's natrually are?"

    Or did you maybe intend to say INTJ's being "authoritatively active" takes away from the time that they could be thinking about their plans/schemes/projects which is what they would rather be doing anyways? "Why do work when you could just think" or some such thing right?

    the question is about "as a whole person...outside of work too"

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaylorS View Post
    I have a love-hate relationship with TJ enviroments. On one hand I like the order, routine, and clearly defined roles and lines of authority because of my Asperger's. On the other hand I get really pissed when people's feelings get stepped on, especially when it's in the name of "efficiency" and "profit".
    I think the person who invented the term "Human Resources" deserves to be sent to Gitmo and be waterboarded; I hate it when TJs treat others as mere cogs in the machine to be exploited for profit rather then treated as individuals with their own wants, needs, desires, and dreams. People should NEVER be treated as mere means to some end, individuals are ends in themselves.


    I get what your saying in the bolded portions but from our perspective efficiency and profit is why we are there. Feelings are gone in an hour. Inefficiency and lack of profit can sink the whole ship.

    In project/work situations people are means to an end, even ourselves. We are there to accomplish something and usually it is not to help each other find our individuality. We have family and close friends for that.

  3. #13
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Just an observation. Around INFPs I feel pressure to be more organisational, take more authority, have more immediate practical solutions and directions.

    Give answers, in other words. And I'm not a Te-dom so it's tiring.


    It's exhausting trying to be E for other people. I want people to work for themselves, and their contribution is what it is. It's better if their contribution is on the money and they made it that way for themselves.

    And once work is done, then it's fine and good, even perhaps necessary, to play. Play, being human, is the reward for finishing work.

    That's all I got.




    Actually, it's kinda fun if one can work and be human at the same time. Work comes first, but.

  4. #14
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    [QUOTE=Scott N Denver;654936]I'm sorry, what did you just say????

    Perhaps what you meant to say was "INTJ's, being independent and always trying to further there plans and schemes, expect INFPs to be more proactive without guidance or input and less emotional and spontaneous than INFP's natrually are?"

    Or did you maybe intend to say INTJ's being "authoritatively active" takes away from the time that they could be thinking about their plans/schemes/projects which is what they would rather be doing anyways? "Why do work when you could just think" or some such thing right?

    the question is about "as a whole person...outside of work too"[/QUOTE]

    I'm not sure if this is directed at me but yeah do those things in the work situation. Unless of course your plan is to usurp them and install your preferred work culture. In regards to the bolded portion, when you condensed the thread down to one line you stated something to the affect of surviving long term in a work environment. Outside of work, be yourself.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    Make friends with one or two outside of work if you can...just ask them to a film or whatever, or suggest a film season ticket so it's a recurring (and structured :p) thing. I think we're generally more pleasant people outside of the work environment...or we show certain different sides to our personality. Even INTJs enjoy work more with friends by their side (provided they don't come running to their office with dumb questions constantly )...at least this is the case for me. You will feel more included and might learn more about their psyche...they might learn more about your strengths and translate them to other TJs.

    P.S.: don't give in to the odd INFP whine reflex and we will try to phrase our criticism less bluntly, deal?

  6. #16
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    Kalach, When I first read your statement "This is a kinda naive observation but INFPs being all an INFP can be tend to expect INTJs to be more authoritatively active than the INTJs usually want to be," I immediately thought of one particular INTJ that I had dealt with who seemed to really enjoy directing others, which is why I immediately thought your statement sounded weird. Having thought about it some more later, I can see how what you said is probably the case. My experience with that one particular INTJ overshadowed my memories of a broader cross section of INTJ's at the time that I made my reply. Also, I would like to point out that in general I am not lacking in direction of what to do or how to do it. At the times when I do need direction/guidance I go ask, get an answer, and then go start implementing/performing the answer. That may very well still not be as self-directed and independent as an NTJ would like of someone else, but in my experience STJ's find it far more than adequate [frequently praiseworthy in my experience], and let's face it most people aren't NTJ's. I often laugh when I think what it would be like if we had lots of SFP's or ESF's... Research environments are known for being EXTREMELY INT environments. Even those who aren't are frequently only borderline E or S in my experience.

    In this thread I was particularly hoping for input from fellow NF's. Perhaps the phrases that I am using to describe people, perhaps your seeing them as whining, whereas for me I'm trying to give examples/qualities/experiences that other NF's could relate to since I am most interested in input from other NF's. For what it is worth, I am not trying to whine. If I was, I would say other things in other ways, perhaps in the "hate an INT" or "NT emotional blockheadesness" threads. Or perhaps someone could make a "the lackings and inadequacies of (I)NTJ's", but then again someone could make a "the lackings and inadequaices of ____" for any of the types. IME many MBTI books list weaknesses/not-strengths of each type, and in particular the MBTI and the workplace books that I've seen definitely do. Personally, I especially recommend Donna Dunning's What's your type of career?

    I am definitely open to NT or TJ feedback, and I appreciate your inputs. Perhaps for the NT/TJ responders I should rephrase my question as "How can a NF maintain/preserve/express their sense of NF self while working in extreme (N)TJ environments?" Does that make more sense or seemed better phrased from an NT perspective?

    We all bring skills and strengths to the table, but when people feel like they cant be or cant express themselves, then those individuals probably aren't bringing their skills and strengths to the table. One would think that from a management/leadership angle, the more skills and strengths being brought to the table the better [within reasonable limits and assuming things could functionally coexist]. However, perhaps this is not so. After all, research and say marketing or sales are two rather different fields and the skill/personality requirements of one are quite different from the other.

    Thanks for all the input and let's keep it coming. Perhaps more NF's will respond as well...

  7. #17
    Aspie Idealist TaylorS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Mere cogs?

    Without the cog there is no machine. So from a task focus point of view, they're not "mere." Importance of the person measured by "What have you to contribute?" rather than "What's your feeling?"
    People are not cogs and society is not a machine. People are sapient entities that are ends unto themselves, cogs are not.
    Autistic INFP


  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott N Denver View Post
    Kalach, When I first read your statement "This is a kinda naive observation but INFPs being all an INFP can be tend to expect INTJs to be more authoritatively active than the INTJs usually want to be," I immediately thought of one particular INTJ that I had dealt with who seemed to really enjoy directing others, which is why I immediately thought your statement sounded weird. Having thought about it some more later, I can see how what you said is probably the case. My experience with that one particular INTJ overshadowed my memories of a broader cross section of INTJ's at the time that I made my reply. Also, I would like to point out that in general I am not lacking in direction of what to do or how to do it. At the times when I do need direction/guidance I go ask, get an answer, and then go start implementing/performing the answer. That may very well still not be as self-directed and independent as an NTJ would like of someone else, but in my experience STJ's find it far more than adequate [frequently praiseworthy in my experience], and let's face it most people aren't NTJ's. I often laugh when I think what it would be like if we had lots of SFP's or ESF's... Research environments are known for being EXTREMELY INT environments. Even those who aren't are frequently only borderline E or S in my experience.

    In this thread I was particularly hoping for input from fellow NF's. Perhaps the phrases that I am using to describe people, perhaps your seeing them as whining, whereas for me I'm trying to give examples/qualities/experiences that other NF's could relate to since I am most interested in input from other NF's. For what it is worth, I am not trying to whine. If I was, I would say other things in other ways, perhaps in the "hate an INT" or "NT emotional blockheadesness" threads. Or perhaps someone could make a "the lackings and inadequacies of (I)NTJ's", but then again someone could make a "the lackings and inadequaices of ____" for any of the types. IME many MBTI books list weaknesses/not-strengths of each type, and in particular the MBTI and the workplace books that I've seen definitely do. Personally, I especially recommend Donna Dunning's What's your type of career?

    I am definitely open to NT or TJ feedback, and I appreciate your inputs. Perhaps for the NT/TJ responders I should rephrase my question as "How can a NF maintain/preserve/express their sense of NF self while working in extreme (N)TJ environments?" Does that make more sense or seemed better phrased from an NT perspective?

    We all bring skills and strengths to the table, but when people feel like they cant be or cant express themselves, then those individuals probably aren't bringing their skills and strengths to the table. One would think that from a management/leadership angle, the more skills and strengths being brought to the table the better [within reasonable limits and assuming things could functionally coexist]. However, perhaps this is not so. After all, research and say marketing or sales are two rather different fields and the skill/personality requirements of one are quite different from the other.

    Thanks for all the input and let's keep it coming. Perhaps more NF's will respond as well...
    In response to the bolded portion, as always it comes down to efficiency. We will never completely understand your deep interest in people or desire to go with your feelings just as you will most likely never completely comprehend the satisfaction we get from creating controlled efficient systems. This does not however mean we don't respect you. We, at least me, are very tolerant of different people and their individual quirks and often find them refreshing as long as the work related competence is also there. In projects/ business we are very goal focused. From our perspective feelings and such have very little place in a work environment unless they are being unfairly and unreasonably hurt. Similar to how our goal focused logic is out of place in many areas that require a softer touch. Outside of work I think you will find we are much more relaxed and our need to control and create our environment is seriously tempered. I know you had asked for more nf feedback but hopefully this somewhat feeble attempt at showing you our perspective will make it easier to adapt.

  9. #19
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaylorS View Post
    People are not cogs and society is not a machine. People are sapient entities that are ends unto themselves, cogs are not.
    Dude, seriously?

    "What have you to contribute?" is a question. A task focus implies the existence of a task. It doesn't imply the non-existence of other things. And those other things that don't not exist, they get asked what they can contribute. They're still allowed their inalienable right to have meaning just by being.


    At least, that's what we tell the oversight committee.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Dude, seriously?

    "What have you to contribute?" is a question. A task focus implies the existence of a task. It doesn't imply the non-existence of other things. And those other things that don't not exist, they get asked what they can contribute. They're still allowed their inalienable right to have meaning just by being.


    At least, that's what we tell the oversight committee.
    Lol. I have to admit that last part gave me such a warm "feeling"

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