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  1. #11
    Member invaderzim's Avatar
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    opps my bad. next time I'll read the entire post

  2. #12
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    I've been lurking for a while, but after reading your post I got so emotionally involved that I just had to join and post a reply.

    I've got an ENFJ sister, so I think I understand where your mom's coming from. I think it's the difference between Fe and Fi that is causing the conflict here. Fe dominants love doing things for other people -- and they get so very hurt when people don't appreciate what they do. I really think she must have gone through quite some trouble to get those amethysts for you, all the while dreaming about how surprised and happy you would be when you see them. Yes, you might have discussed it and come to a conclusion that you didn't want them. But, she still thought you must have secretly still wanted them but were too polite/shy to directly say so. She might even have had a little speech planned out for when you go "Oh, mom, you shouldn't have!" (the expected response) -- maybe saying something about you going out into real life now and how she wants the best for you. Fe actions mean something. And her getting you those amethysts means "I remember what you wanted, even when you told me not to get them for you", which means "I care so much for you". So when she didn't get the expected response from you, she interpreted it as you saying "I don't want these", which means "I don't appreciate you getting them for me", which means "I don't appreciate the fact that you thought about me and went through all that trouble to do things for me", which to her means 'selfish'. Then she linked it all with the fact that she didn't get the flowers you promised. For her, it's actually not about the flowers. It's the thought about getting her the flowers -- the effort to get them for her. I think Fe users like feelings to be expressed -- after all, it's extraverted feeling -- it reaches out. And when it does and finds 'nothing' there, it gets lost and confused and hurt.

    I think the best way is to introduce her to the MBTI -- just to show her how different people can be. I came from an Fe family, and I was really thrown off balance when I first experienced Fi in other people. Even now, it's sort of an 'unknown' territory for me. So your mom, without awareness of the different types of 'feelings', might even be more confused and frustrated with not 'getting to you' (knowing what you want and knowing how to keep you happy), which is very important for Fe.

    I hope that made sense...

  3. #13
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    I've got an ENFJ sister, so I think I understand where your mom's coming from. I think it's the difference between Fe and Fi that is causing the conflict here. Fe dominants love doing things for other people -- and they get so very hurt when people don't appreciate what they do. I really think she must have gone through quite some trouble to get those amethysts for you, all the while dreaming about how surprised and happy you would be when you see them. Yes, you might have discussed it and come to a conclusion that you didn't want them. But, she still thought you must have secretly still wanted them but were too polite/shy to directly say so. She might even have had a little speech planned out for when you go "Oh, mom, you shouldn't have!" (the expected response) -- maybe saying something about you going out into real life now and how she wants the best for you. Fe actions mean something. And her getting you those amethysts means "I remember what you wanted, even when you told me not to get them for you", which means "I care so much for you". So when she didn't get the expected response from you, she interpreted it as you saying "I don't want these", which means "I don't appreciate you getting them for me", which means "I don't appreciate the fact that you thought about me and went through all that trouble to do things for me", which to her means 'selfish'. Then she linked it all with the fact that she didn't get the flowers you promised. For her, it's actually not about the flowers. It's the thought about getting her the flowers -- the effort to get them for her. I think Fe users like feelings to be expressed -- after all, it's extraverted feeling -- it reaches out. And when it does and finds 'nothing' there, it gets lost and confused and hurt.
    This is it right here. The gifts are symbols of thought & affection from your mom. My ISFJ mother takes pride in remembering what someone has mentioned offhand they might like & surprising them with it as a gift. To them it says, "I was listening to you & you're important enough for me to make mental notes on your likes & dislikes". When you did not show much reaction, she took it as a rejection of her affection.

    As for giving your mom a gift....you made a promise, but then you kept putting off fulfilling it to do other things. In essence, you said to her, "You are not a priority for me. These other things & people are more important" and that's a hard message for a mom to get. If you didn't promise the flower, she may not have been unsatisfied with the other efforts you made. I suspect she likes physical things she can keep because they are reminders of your affection every time she sees it (I think ENFJs need a lot of reassurance of love).

    I understand your perspective...the obligated gifts & cards and what not is stupid & shallow to me as an INFP too, but remember that the motives behind this is to show you care...so it's not about YOU and what you like or want. When someone gives you a gift, no matter how dumb it is, accept it graciously for their sake. When you give a gift, give something that will mean something to the other person, even if it seems lame to you (ie. a card). I'm not big on gift giving, but I've learned that my reactions & efforts should be focused on the other people because it symbolic for them & I don't want to hurt their feelings.

    Oh and I will add that I can't believe you find it annoying that your mom loves you a lot and wants to show you & to receive affection from you also.....what an awful mom...come on, dude :rolli:
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  4. #14
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    I've been lurking for a while, but after reading your post I got so emotionally involved that I just had to join and post a reply.

    I've got an ENFJ sister, so I think I understand where your mom's coming from. I think it's the difference between Fe and Fi that is causing the conflict here. Fe dominants love doing things for other people -- and they get so very hurt when people don't appreciate what they do. I really think she must have gone through quite some trouble to get those amethysts for you, all the while dreaming about how surprised and happy you would be when you see them. Yes, you might have discussed it and come to a conclusion that you didn't want them. But, she still thought you must have secretly still wanted them but were too polite/shy to directly say so. She might even have had a little speech planned out for when you go "Oh, mom, you shouldn't have!" (the expected response) -- maybe saying something about you going out into real life now and how she wants the best for you. Fe actions mean something. And her getting you those amethysts means "I remember what you wanted, even when you told me not to get them for you", which means "I care so much for you". So when she didn't get the expected response from you, she interpreted it as you saying "I don't want these", which means "I don't appreciate you getting them for me", which means "I don't appreciate the fact that you thought about me and went through all that trouble to do things for me", which to her means 'selfish'. Then she linked it all with the fact that she didn't get the flowers you promised. For her, it's actually not about the flowers. It's the thought about getting her the flowers -- the effort to get them for her. I think Fe users like feelings to be expressed -- after all, it's extraverted feeling -- it reaches out. And when it does and finds 'nothing' there, it gets lost and confused and hurt.

    I think the best way is to introduce her to the MBTI -- just to show her how different people can be. I came from an Fe family, and I was really thrown off balance when I first experienced Fi in other people. Even now, it's sort of an 'unknown' territory for me. So your mom, without awareness of the different types of 'feelings', might even be more confused and frustrated with not 'getting to you' (knowing what you want and knowing how to keep you happy), which is very important for Fe.

    I hope that made sense...
    That made sense, and that's exactly what she does. She even told me it was about the thought of giving her the flowers... And I told her that I was thinking of giving them to her but she just... Didn't care. I sat her down and told her I counted 13 times that I wanted to get them for her and that she was over reacting. Every time I said that she would dodge it and go on and guilt me about something different. Then I'd say "no, why are you dodging it? ANSWER ME!" after a while. I think I finally got the message to her and she chilled out after a while at the end of the dispute... But I still think it's totally ridiculous that someone is getting mad over something so stupid. I really dislike Fe for the most part, EFJs scare the hell out of me and make me feel extremely uncomfortable. People that are overtly nice seem suspicious and/or superficial to me. Just telling the truth the way I see it. It just seems like she's always mad about absolutely nothing.

    And she does know about MBTI, I've made her read the profiles for INFPs to understand me further. She reads them but doesn't really apply that knowledge. My aunt (her twin) is an INFP, and she says "You both are just selfish, you're assholes and selfish! You hate me!" I think my mom really just isn't used to non Fe users. I've tried and tried to get her to realize it. Basically when I told her about Fi vs Fe she said "So those people with Fi are selfish? Why wouldn't someone want to be nice and provide for others?" And I'm like the entire time.

    It really caught her off guard when I explained to her that I really didn't care about giving or receiving gifts. That was I think 5 years ago that I first told her, and I still have to tell her. It just seems like she doesn't understand that being there for someone and showing that you care by other means such as talking to them about their problems, doing things with them, talking about everything, etc. I've done this with my mom... It really doesn't do much for her even though she appreciates me. It's the same fashion as my not really caring about constantly getting gifts, but I still appreciate it (if I don't then I risk a nuclear explosion in my house via my mom).

    This is definitely an Fi vs Fe conflict... This is the worst conflict I think I've ever been through. Worse than with my ESTJ step mom. At least then I could logically reason with her. At least I could communicate and understand where my step mom was coming from.

    God I feel like I'm just bitching here (which I am) but at this point it doesn't matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    As for giving your mom a gift....you made a promise, but then you kept putting off fulfilling it to do other things. In essence, you said to her, "You are not a priority for me. These other things & people are more important" and that's a hard message for a mom to get. If you didn't promise the flower, she may not have been unsatisfied with the other efforts you made. I suspect she likes physical things she can keep because they are reminders of your affection every time she sees it (I think ENFJs need a lot of reassurance of love).
    School is my main priority. She even told me it should be. She understands that, and most of my putting off the gift was due to school of some sort.

    Oh and I will add that I can't believe you find it annoying that your mom loves you a lot and wants to show you & to receive affection from you also.....what an awful mom...come on, dude :rolli:
    It's annoying when it's constantly happening. My mom is the most extroverted person I've ever met. That alone is grounds for a conflict with living with someone. She is constantly smothering and overwhelming me, she doesn't understand that introverts have limits (even after explaining it). She pretty much explained to me that she hates being around introverts. When I am spent socially she thinks that my withdrawal is a rejection since I won't want to talk to her, and everything I say while spent is an attempt to get people to be quiet. When I explained to her introversion and how I basically didn't want someone to talk a lot she said that that "seems cruel for someone to think that".

    I'd like to add that my mom is a very fucked up person in the head. She has been apart of cults, is totally irrational, thinks that anyone who isn't new agey is "ignorant", has a terrible family life (which comes from every sibling besides her ESTJ sister being an introvert, and they're all TJs or FPs. Thus more Fe vs Fi conflict. She annoys the hell out of them, and thinks that they are terrible siblings because they don't go out of their way to please her).
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  5. #15
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    If you see your mom's behavior as strictly irrational and inconsiderate, you're going to keep butting heads with her. If you see it as emanating from a place of vulnerability, than you can see past your own opinions of right, wrong, appropriate, and inappropriate, and do something to help usher in some peace and maybe even help her by talking to her compassionately, or getting her something, or something else entirely that you improvise. Logically, it's not hard to see how her behavior and attitudes come from vulnerability: she's sensitive to abandonment, has linked it in her head with physical provisions, and doesn't have the faith to "step out" of the whole predicament, analyze it, and make adjustments. But actually seeing it that way -- not just logically and intellectually, but actually perceiving her vulnerability and her challenges -- means you have to drop your own defenses and risk being sad yourself once you share her perspective. That takes guts and faith on your own part.
    Last edited by ThatsWhatHeSaid; 05-17-2009 at 11:08 PM.

  6. #16
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    School is my main priority. She even told me it should be. She understands that, and most of my putting off the gift was due to school of some sort.

    It's annoying when it's constantly happening. My mom is the most extroverted person I've ever met. That alone is grounds for a conflict with living with someone. She is constantly smothering and overwhelming me, she doesn't understand that introverts have limits (even after explaining it). She pretty much explained to me that she hates being around introverts. When I am spent socially she thinks that my withdrawal is a rejection since I won't want to talk to her, and everything I say while spent is an attempt to get people to be quiet. When I explained to her introversion and how I basically didn't want someone to talk a lot she said that that "seems cruel for someone to think that".

    I'd like to add that my mom is a very fucked up person in the head. She has been apart of cults, is totally irrational, thinks that anyone who isn't new agey is "ignorant", has a terrible family life (which comes from every sibling besides her ESTJ sister being an introvert, and they're all TJs or FPs. Thus more Fe vs Fi conflict. She annoys the hell out of them, and thinks that they are terrible siblings because they don't go out of their way to please her).
    Okay, so she is a little crazy .
    Ultimately it seems like she cares about you a lot, and that's more than some people have. Not saying your feelings are invalid, but her's aren't totally invalid either, even if she's, erm, imbalanced at times .

    Moving out will probably improve your relationship. It will naturally set the boundaries that are hard to enforce when living with her.
    My ISFJ mom is a bit smothering, but I try and remember she means well, and doing that helps me cope with it better. She's still my mommy after all .
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  7. #17
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    If it means so much to her why not save 25Cents per week, put it in a jar and by Mother's Day you'll have enough to buy her a flower? Perhaps to her it's not the flower that matters but that you made the effort and came through for her on MD.

    I'm not even close to an ENFJ but I'm kind of the same way.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Xellotath's Avatar
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    I sympathize in absolutely every aspect.
    My mother is an ENFJ as well. Everyone in my family is Fe and I am the only one with Fi. Which is why I keep them all at a distance. (They're all stereotypically Fe, they love their silly birthday cards and christmas and cards... all of the idiotic, superficial rituals that apparently mean something.)
    When the slightest detail goes wrong, it's like she's temporarily histrionic.
    Then she stops being mad and everyone around her just plays the role. Oh no, everything is fine again.. except for me because the impact of her episodes tend linger longer, making me feel rather bitter and confused.
    She -adores- bringing up the selfishness argument. Down to the "I keep the house clean and you're all ingrates, I'm a slave for you bastards....blablabla."
    Call me paranoid, but I believe Fe has a morbid obsession with guilt and is interested instilling guilt in others.
    I remember being about 8, and I got my first D in school, she spent the whole night screaming about how I should feel horrible because by not getting a good grade I was spitting on the efforts my father makes, causing him more stress and eventually I would be the cause for a heart-attack, thus killing him. Yep, not beyond of instilling the fear of indirectly committing patricide in a child for the glory of academia.
    I hope your ENFJ isnt as bad as mine. I would go as far as to say that some of that behavior can be classified as emotional abuse, but alas, the rest of the family thinks I'm being too dramatic.

    Sorry, I made this a little more personal than it should have been. But your thread struck a chord with me.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xellotath View Post
    I sympathize in absolutely every aspect.
    My mother is an ENFJ as well. Everyone in my family is Fe and I am the only one with Fi. Which is why I keep them all at a distance. (They're all stereotypically Fe, they love their silly birthday cards and christmas and cards... all of the idiotic, superficial rituals that apparently mean something.)
    When the slightest detail goes wrong, it's like she's temporarily histrionic.
    Then she stops being mad and everyone around her just plays the role. Oh no, everything is fine again.. except for me because the impact of her episodes tend linger longer, making me feel rather bitter and confused.
    She -adores- bringing up the selfishness argument. Down to the "I keep the house clean and you're all ingrates, I'm a slave for you bastards....blablabla."
    Call me paranoid, but I believe Fe has a morbid obsession with guilt and is interested instilling guilt in others.
    I remember being about 8, and I got my first D in school, she spent the whole night screaming about how I should feel horrible because by not getting a good grade I was spitting on the efforts my father makes, causing him more stress and eventually I would be the cause for a heart-attack, thus killing him. Yep, not beyond of instilling the fear of indirectly committing patricide in a child for the glory of academia.
    I hope your ENFJ isnt as bad as mine. I would go as far as to say that some of that behavior can be classified as emotional abuse, but alas, the rest of the family thinks I'm being too dramatic.

    Sorry, I made this a little more personal than it should have been. But your thread struck a chord with me.
    Whooo sounds like some awful Fe. yikes. I have been on the receiving end of both Fe and Fi fueled guilt trips. Neither are pleasant.

  10. #20
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xellotath View Post
    I sympathize in absolutely every aspect.
    My mother is an ENFJ as well. Everyone in my family is Fe and I am the only one with Fi. Which is why I keep them all at a distance. (They're all stereotypically Fe, they love their silly birthday cards and christmas and cards... all of the idiotic, superficial rituals that apparently mean something.)
    When the slightest detail goes wrong, it's like she's temporarily histrionic.
    Then she stops being mad and everyone around her just plays the role. Oh no, everything is fine again.. except for me because the impact of her episodes tend linger longer, making me feel rather bitter and confused.
    She -adores- bringing up the selfishness argument. Down to the "I keep the house clean and you're all ingrates, I'm a slave for you bastards....blablabla."
    Call me paranoid, but I believe Fe has a morbid obsession with guilt and is interested instilling guilt in others.
    I remember being about 8, and I got my first D in school, she spent the whole night screaming about how I should feel horrible because by not getting a good grade I was spitting on the efforts my father makes, causing him more stress and eventually I would be the cause for a heart-attack, thus killing him. Yep, not beyond of instilling the fear of indirectly committing patricide in a child for the glory of academia.
    I hope your ENFJ isnt as bad as mine. I would go as far as to say that some of that behavior can be classified as emotional abuse, but alas, the rest of the family thinks I'm being too dramatic.

    Sorry, I made this a little more personal than it should have been. But your thread struck a chord with me.
    My ENFJ pulls the selfish argument every time. I just can't get her to understand Fi without her calling it selfish. Her INFP sister and her have extreme conflicts with each other, to the point of physical fighting. The communication barrier is that bad... I feel it too. I can relate to you on this.

    I can sympathize with you as well.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

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