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[MBTI General] NF Feeling different than SF Feeling

Athenian200

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Either we (The other SFs on this forum) are anomalies or there's something wrong with the guideline rule. Personally I don't get the impression I'm that unique compared to other SF, especially other SFJs in my life. We're all extremely similar so I have to conclude something is up with these assessments that are being bounced around.

This is definitely true. It's a matter of needing to adapt. It's also the reason I've found it really bizzare when I see another 'social reject' slating off another person for being too weird. I've been a social outcast for most of my life, the only child in the family who did something outside the usual paths. It's not the N/S that determines how judgemental people are, it's whether they are used to doing something differently. But at the end of the day, most people fear the unknown. I doubt that's any less true for intuitives.

No. This is just more stereotyping.
Gah I always feel like such a tool attempting to defend sensors or feeling based sensors.

Truthfully, all types are little more than stereotypes. :yes:

They're meant to be caricatures that people associate with particular traits. You're pretty much supposed to pick the one you like being associated with, whether it's accurate or not.

People here don't like the idea of sensors, because here we seem to have associated that mindset with fundamentalist religious beliefs, intolerance towards new ideas, parents that tried to impose traditional roles on their children against their will, a lack of curiosity, shallowness and superficiality, and an inability to grasp irony or sarcasm. They'll make exceptions for an individual sensor once they "prove" themselves, but in general this is what people see.

Now, are sensors really like that? Probably not, but it doesn't matter, because that's how people want to see them. And in an archetype system that's based on caricatures anyway... there's nothing to balance it out. Quite honestly, the whole idea of "sensors" and "intuitives" may only seem to exist because of confirmation bias. The whole thing could be in our heads.

The main thing you need to know about this system isn't its intended use, it's the way people have ended up using it. It's mostly something that some people find helpful in uncovering the parts of themselves that they've repressed, and gives them images to project onto other people in order to help them rationalize out how they got where they are, and what kind of things they need to do to move forward. It allows people to rid themselves of guilt and other kinds of baggage by enabling them to blame their environment instead of themselves, so that they can change. Some people are programmed to blame themselves for everything, and really need something like this.

Honestly, I think you'd have a much easier time here if you just changed your S to an N. You're intelligent enough that few would question it.
I mean, think about it... you say you're the only one who has done things differently in your family. You could go a little further and say that's because you're creative and they're not. You could decide that you were a social reject because no one appreciated your creativity/uniqueness and differences from other people, looking down on you for not conforming to their way of doing things. You can see why that kind of perspective would be appealing, right?

Do you see what I'm getting at here?
 

Colors

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Gah. Can't beat be moderately respected by the mob, so you should join them?
 

Athenian200

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Gah. Can't beat be moderately respected by the mob, so you should join them?

No, no... you see, sensors ARE supposed to BE the mob. We intuitive types are the victims of the mob. ;)

That's the way the picture has been painted.
 

Lauren Ashley

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You're pretty much supposed to pick the one you like being associated with, whether it's accurate or not.
Hmmm...I typed myself as INFJ because it described me well.

People here don't like the idea of sensors, because here we seem to have associated that mindset with fundamentalist religious beliefs, intolerance towards new ideas, parents that tried to impose traditional roles on their children against their will, a lack of curiosity, shallowness and superficiality, and an inability to grasp irony or sarcasm.
I don't have any problem with sensors and don't associate sensing with those traits.

It allows people to rid themselves of guilt and other kinds of baggage by enabling them to blame their environment instead of themselves, so that they can change. Some people are programmed to blame themselves for everything, and really need something like this.
...Maybe you should speak only for yourself. Just sayin'.
 

Thalassa

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People here don't like the idea of sensors, because here we seem to have associated that mindset with fundamentalist religious beliefs, intolerance towards new ideas, parents that tried to impose traditional roles on their children against their will, a lack of curiosity, shallowness and superficiality, and an inability to grasp irony or sarcasm. They'll make exceptions for an individual sensor once they "prove" themselves, but in general this is what people see.

I associate SPs with artists, people who reject traditional formal education, and rebels. I associate SPs with sensitive musicians and actors. People who are fun and easy going.

What you describe I associate more with SJs. And I would think that some people would prefer to SJs because they are SJs and SJ can be easily associated with "normality" in the most strictly middle class American sense of the word i.e. Christianity, support our troops, Abercrombie and Fitch.



Honestly, I think you'd have a much easier time here if you just changed your S to an N. You're intelligent enough that few would question it.
I mean, think about it... you say you're the only one who has done things differently in your family. You could go a little further and say that's because you're creative and they're not. You could decide that you were a social reject because no one appreciated your creativity/uniqueness and differences from other people, looking down on you for not conforming to their way of doing things.

I don't think that this is a good idea. You should just be who you are. Also, I think SPs can be creative. I don't automatically associate N with creative. I associate it more with analytical and introspective.
 

Athenian200

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Hmmm...I typed myself as INFJ because it described me well.

I did too, at first. It was later on that I realized that it worked that way.


I don't have any problem with sensors and don't associate sensing with those traits.

I don't have any problem with them either. I don't even agree with that trait list. That's just how I've noticed that that's how people seem to see sensors on here.
...Maybe you should speak only for yourself. Just sayin'.

I'm not speaking for myself at all, though.
 

Snow Turtle

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Truthfully, all types are little more than stereotypes. :yes:

They're meant to be caricatures that people associate with particular traits. You're pretty much supposed to pick the one you like being associated with, whether it's accurate or not.

People here don't like the idea of sensors, because here we seem to have associated that mindset with fundamentalist religious beliefs, intolerance towards new ideas, parents that tried to impose traditional roles on their children against their will, a lack of curiosity, shallowness and superficiality, and an inability to grasp irony or sarcasm. They'll make exceptions for an individual sensor once they "prove" themselves, but in general this is what people see.

Now, are sensors really like that? Probably not, but it doesn't matter, because that's how people want to see them. And in an archetype system that's based on caricatures anyway... there's nothing to balance it out. Quite honestly, the whole idea of "sensors" and "intuitives" may only seem to exist because of confirmation bias. The whole thing could be in our heads.

The main thing you need to know about this system isn't its intended use, it's the way people have ended up using it. It's mostly something that some people find helpful in uncovering the parts of themselves that they've repressed, and gives them images to project onto other people in order to help them rationalize out how they got where they are, and what kind of things they need to do to move forward. It allows people to rid themselves of guilt and other kinds of baggage by enabling them to blame their environment instead of themselves, so that they can change. Some people are programmed to blame themselves for everything, and really need something like this.

Honestly, I think you'd have a much easier time here if you just changed your S to an N. You're intelligent enough that few would question it.
I mean, think about it... you say you're the only one who has done things differently in your family. You could go a little further and say that's because you're creative and they're not. You could decide that you were a social reject because no one appreciated your creativity/uniqueness and differences from other people, looking down on you for not conforming to their way of doing things. You can see why that kind of perspective would be appealing, right?

Do you see what I'm getting at here?

That was a fantastic post. :headphne:

It's certainly has be tempting to go down the whole "I'm different from these people. They just don't get me. I'm on a good path, they just don't realise it." and in some ways there's truth in that. I am different to my family members, but I don't think it's down to sensor/intuition. It's additional factors outside the basic model that is MBTI or cognitive functions.

Anyhow I don't think I'd ever want to change to an intuitive based on two principles.

1. I'd be intellectually and emotionally dishonest.
2. Eh... I've constantly had the compulsion to defend the underdog, even if it meant going against the majority.

The idea of creating a whole new persona in order to test confirmation bias has occured to me before, doing what YourLocalJesus essentially did to observe changes in perception and responses. MBTI (tm), Enneagram, and other personality matrices - Typology Central

I don't automatically associate N with creative. I associate it more with analytical and introspective.

What would sensing be?
Those are the two traits I identify with most, more so than empathy and sympathy despite my desires for the latter.
 

Athenian200

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Well, I noticed that when I would talk to people on here about sensing, the traits you see described on typical MBTI websites somehow got twisted into negative forms, and a bunch of emotional baggage (mostly from INPs who believe their parents were SJs) got added into the mix. It was impossible to confront them about it, because if you tried, they'd admit that not all sensors are like this. But they'd still tend to apply that perspective to situations. It didn't matter if you got through to them via reason, they'd still be biased in that direction unconsciously for other reasons. So essentially, we're stuck with a flawed picture painted in a way that favors Intuitives, because that's what ended up being the most comforting and useful for the majority of the systems users. Sometimes truth has nothing to do with what people see, or even what they need to see.
Maybe you should do that.

Okay, I don't think MBTI works as well as people think it does. I think it's meant to be a self-development tool only, and doesn't work well when applied to other people, or otherwise used in an objective way. It especially shouldn't be used to describe groups, because it's not designed for that at all. It doesn't hold up to that kind of pressure.
 

Thalassa

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2. Eh... I've constantly had the compulsion to defend the underdog, even if it meant going against the majority.

this is an interesting thing for you to say because most people in the world ARE "S"...."N"s are actually the rarer ones, the underdog as you say, there just are more on this site
 

Lauren Ashley

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Well, I noticed that when I would talk to people on here about sensing, the traits you see described on typical MBTI websites somehow got twisted into negative forms, and a bunch of emotional baggage (mostly from INPs who believe their parents were SJs) got added into the mix. It was impossible to confront them about it, because if you tried, they'd admit that not all sensors are like this. But they'd still tend to apply that perspective to situations. It didn't matter if you got through to them via reason, they'd still be biased in that direction unconsciously for other reasons.

I don't understand what this has to do with my typing as INFJ. I typed as INFJ before I ever knew about this forum.
 

Athenian200

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I don't understand what this has to do with my typing as INFJ. I typed as INFJ before I ever knew about this forum.

Huh? I wasn't talking about that. I definitely wasn't questioning your type. I was talking about how it came to be that sensors are often seen this way.

Were you asking about that?
 

Thalassa

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What would sensing be?
Those are the two traits I identify with most, more so than empathy and sympathy despite my desires for the latter.

Sensing is associated with building, hands on learning, aesthetics (like art, decorating, architechture), living in the here and now instead of more inside your head. Ss can be good detectives, inspectors, or just good at organizing or managing a business. They notice outer details and use their five senses fully. I think they're probably more likely to say, "Seeing is believing." Ss are known to like the hard sciences sometimes, too, because it's something so tangible and concrete. Facts rather than theories.
 

Snow Turtle

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this is an interesting thing for you to say because most people in the world ARE "S"...."N"s are actually the rarer ones, the underdog as you say, there just are more on this site

Quite a few of my friends would be considered eccentric, strange or quirky, but overall I love them for their kindness. My closest friends was an INFJ, my current group of friendship contains at least (3/6) that are intuitives. One of my old friend was an ENTP, and my boss appeared to be the same as well. It's possible that I have mistyped them, but I don't think so as I've been using MBTI and cognitive functions for a while. I'm naturally interested in psychology.

I understand that intuitives are the minority in real life, and I'd defend them when bashed against. In the same manner I'll defend sensors when they are ranted against unfairly. The whole point is not to take sides, it's to reveal what is truth. If the underdog is correct, then I'll protect it. In terms of religions, it's also the reason that I label myself as agnostic. I identify most with the balance symbol or the earth. And acccck! You made me go totally off topic >_>'

Sensing is associated with building, hands on learning, aesthetics (like art, decorating, architechture), living in the here and now instead of more inside your head. Ss can be good detectives, inspectors, or just good at organizing or managing a business. They notice outer details and use their five senses fully. I think they're probably more likely to say, "Seeing is believing." Ss are known to like the hard sciences sometimes, too, because it's something so tangible and concrete. Facts rather than theories.

There's a mixture of Si and Se within that paragraph.

1. Why are facts more interesting than a theory?
2. What makes it so that facts are more tangible and concrete?
3. Considering that most facts are usually derived from a system or theory. Isn't there a problem?

What I do notice is that, along with other ISJs, I'm certainly more interested in a theory for application sake than just learning the theory. However what does application mean? Application could easily be: A general interest in the subject for fun. I've noticed that there are also many other ISFJs that have interest in psychology, a subject that is full of ambiguity.
 

Lauren Ashley

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Huh? I wasn't talking about that. I definitely wasn't questioning your type. I was talking about why people see sensors the way they do.

Were you asking about that?
No. Let's go over the exchange.

You said:
You're pretty much supposed to pick the one [type] you like being associated with, whether it's accurate or not.
I replied:
Hmmm...I typed myself as INFJ because it described me well.
Then you replied:
I did too, at first. It was later on that I realized that it worked that way.
So how does it work that way?
 

Athenian200

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So how does it work that way?

I don't know, honestly. I'm holding on to my typing from when I took a few tests a while ago, and I still feel like it fits overall.

The point was, it ends up working that way for a lot of people (the ones who end up using the system to evaluate other people), because of this picture that got built up unconsciously and collectively. Especially the ones who allow themselves to be heavily influenced by other's opinions of what type they are and why.

I have no idea why it works this way, but I've seen a lot of signs that it does work this way for a lot of people on here. It's not entirely positive (though it can have positive effects for certain people who type themselves as N), but it's not entirely conscious either. So it's hard to eliminate, especially since so much of the system is subjective and open to interpretation. The more experiences people have had that confirm these interpretations, the more certain they become of them. It's... very messy.
 

runvardh

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S and N are really just the ways information gets in, F in the end judges it. The real divisions of F tend to be which direction it's pointed, and then where it gets the information from. It's also important to understand that some are based more out of their feeling function while others are more based out of their perceving function which plays with how they work again.

S does tend to be more concrete in perception while N tends towards the more theoretical (the what ifs). Of course the extremes can show how stuck an S can be as well as how much of a basket case an N can be. Also, I find with a certain amount of intelligence and maturity a basic feel for the other side can develop and blur the lines quite easily.

MBTI very much is just a skeleton of psycology. A framework on which other things develop forming the full personality. Then again, we all have to start somewhere.
 

Snow Turtle

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I don't know, honestly. I'm holding on to my typing from when I took a few tests a while ago, and I still feel like it fits overall.

The point was, it ends up working that way for a lot of people (the ones who end up using the system to evaluate other people), because of this picture that got built up unconsciously. Especially the ones who allow themselves to be heavily influenced by other's opinions of their type.

I have no idea why it works this way, but I've seen a lot of signs that it does work this way for a lot of people on here. It's not entirely positive (though it can have positive effects for certain people who type themselves as N), but it's not entirely conscious either. So it's hard to eliminate, especially since so much of the system is subjective and open to interpretation. The more experiences people have had that confirm these interpretations, the more certain they become of them.

It's sort of hard for a sensor to do that when most of the descriptions are somewhat unflattering in comparison to the intuitive counterpart. There's an element of truth in the fact that we want to choose the one that we like the most, the idealised version. The first time I came onto MBTI I was asking why feeling and thinking was incompatible as it seemed logical to include both in the system. My idealised version was an ISFX but I felt extremely stotic, enough to push me towards ISXX at the beginning. It's only over time that I accepted the fact that I was an ISFJ after going through all four. I never once identified with intuition because I simply don't see myself as intuitive, as much as I want to have the perceived abilities of an intuitive.
 

Thalassa

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There's a mixture of Si and Se within that paragraph.

1. Why are facts more interesting than a theory?
2. What makes it so that facts are more tangible and concrete?
3. Considering that most facts are usually derived from a system or theory. Isn't there a problem?

What I do notice is that, along with other ISJs, I'm certainly more interested in a theory for application sake than just learning the theory. However what does application mean? Application could easily be: A general interest in the subject for fun. I've noticed that there are also many other ISFJs that have interest in psychology, a subject that is full of ambiguity.

1) I don't think that facts are more interesting than a theory, but this is a trait more related to Sensing that iNtuiting.

2) Facts are more tangible and concrete because facts can be proven.

3) Facts are usually derived from a system or theory that can be proven by direct observation, which involves a great deal of sensing.

I know Sensors who excel at things like carpentry, mechanic work, gardening, nursing, and cooking: hands on occupations. But that isn't to say that all Ss do the hands on thing. Like you, they could simply prefer theories which can be applied directly to "real life."

Psychology is full of ambiguity but involves far more direct observation than subjects like literature, or philosophy.

Ss can have strongly developed Ns and vice versa. I'm an N but according to my test results my Se is pretty strongly developed. MBTI just implies a preference for one or the other, not that a person uses one or the other exclusively.
 

Snow Turtle

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1) I don't think that facts are more interesting than a theory, but this is a trait more related to Sensing that iNtuiting.

2) Facts are more tangible and concrete because facts can be proven.

3) Facts are usually derived from a system or theory that can be proven by direct observation, which involves a great deal of sensing.

1. Yep. I was questioning why facts would be more interesting to a sensor than theories and systems.

2. In that case I would expect sensors to like abstract maths, since maths is the only language that has complete proof. Everything else can be debated. But I can appreciate if you meant proof by observation, still surely at higher level physics and chemistry. You'll eventually start examining things that aren't observable but are assumed e.g. Gravity etc.

I know Sensors who excel at things like carpentry, mechanic work, gardening, nursing, and cooking: hands on occupations. But that isn't to say that all Ss do the hands on thing. Like you, they could simply prefer theories which can be applied directly to "real life."

That's true. Well... we do make up roughly 70% of the population. SPs also happen to be quite distinct from SJs as you mentioned earlier.

Psychology is full of ambiguity but involves far more direct observation than subjects like literature, or philosophy.

Ss can have strongly developed Ns and vice versa. I'm an N but according to my test results my Se is pretty strongly developed. MBTI just implies a preference for one or the other, not that a person uses one or the other exclusively.

One of my biggest interest apart from psychology is philosophy. Basic ones:
"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?", "What is consciousness?", "Ring of Gyges", "Trolley problems" - All these questions can have profound applications in life. It constantly irks me when people say that philosophy is a useless subject.
 
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