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  1. #61
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    Not necessarily, that alone is far from convincing.
    Alright well I don't really have anything to backup that statement so I'll just leave it.

    Perhaps because some intuitives feel frustrated by the fact that they are percieved as odd lunatics by sensors IRL (the majority of society)? Observing online communities only may lead to false conclusions.
    I've mentioned this before on the other thread. I personally don't believe frustrations excuse blatant stereotyping and demonising of sensors. However there were others that disagreed mentioning how MBTI should be a comfort zone where intuitives are allowed to rant considering their experience with sensors in real life. False conclusions about what exactly though? I stated that I don't believe all intuitives engage in this particular act. It's not exactly false that there are some individuals that do engage in MBTI superiority.

    *shrug* Perhaps you really aren't an ISFJ, or an ISFJ with weak sensing preference and a helluva lot of personal problems. Plus, I think you may be overestimating the importance of functions.

    Be prepared that no description will cover your personality perfectly, that would require 7 billion personality types - which doesn't mean that the whole system is wrong. It only "promotes false understanding of generalised human behaviour" if you take everything word for word, which isn't exactly the wisest behavior in case of such an ambiguous field as psychology.
    Functions are what sort of what create the whole MBTI system... Personally I think the reverse is more likely to be true. People are more likely to place too much importance on the four dichotomies.

    Again I already mentioned that I don't believe that MBTI will explain my personality perfectly. I was never arguing that point. I was arguing that the some of skeleton ideas that attempt to map the basic generalised behaviours might not be accurate. It's the reason you get threads like "NTs are robots/don't feel emotions much etc"

    That's almost as disturbing as if I'd say "SF are more likely to bake cookies"
    Are you just picking up on the fact that I didn't say that Ni or Ne seeks truth as well? My bad for miscommunicating that if so, what I meant was that it seeks truth and entertains extra possabilities. Si seems more content with what's practical in that regard, once it has the truth it sort of stops.

    Tell me what's wrong with it then?

  2. #62
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    I've always considered myself a truth-seeker. I think one way I use Ni is in finding hidden meanings in order to arrive at the truth.

    Though I agree with the point you (or was it someone else?) made earlier about differentiating Si and Se, and Ni and Ne.
    Sorry I clarified my post. Bah~
    I actually used you as an example of my point from a thread a long time ago marking the difference between Ni and Si.

    When I look towards the future, when I'm attempting to predict an outcome. I'm only interested in what is the most likely outcome.

    I remember another INFJ talking about how they would also entertain alternative outcomes.

    That for me was a major difference. However I can only say it's true for myself, I don't know whether it's the same for other ISFJs. It's the reason I say that sensors are more practical because they are interested in what's the most likely outcome only.

  3. #63
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Costrin supports what Kai is saying and stuff.
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

  4. #64
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    I personally don't believe frustrations excuse blatant stereotyping and demonising of sensors.
    No, they don't. But they provide a possible explanation for the abovementioned phenomenon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    False conclusions about what exactly though? I stated that I don't believe all intuitives engage in this particular act. It's not exactly false that there are some individuals that do engage in MBTI superiority.
    I was simply pointing out that the fact that you've seen a couple of threads about intuitives bashing sensors doesn't mean this is a common symptom IRL; by thinking that, you ignore the problematic nature of the sample (size, access to the Internet etc.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Functions are what sort of what create the whole MBTI system... Personally I think the reverse is more likely to be true. People are more likely to place too much importance on the four dichotomies.
    IIRC there is no 100% correlation between types (the dichotomies, the foundation of MBTI) and the functions often associated with them. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Are you just picking up on the fact that I didn't say that Ni or Ne seeks truth as well?
    I thought you said "Si seeks turth, Ni and Ne don't", which I found a little funny after your complaint of inaccuracy. Now I understand what you're talking about.

  5. #65
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    IIRC there is no 100% correlation between types (the dichotomies, the foundation of MBTI) and the functions often associated with them. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong
    Wrong. An ISFJ will always be SiFeTiNe, INTJ NiTeFiSe, ENFP NeFiTeSi, etc. The functions describe your "mental set of tools" basically. The dichotomies explain behaviours, ie, how you use your set of tools. So an INFJ who uses his Ti more than Fe will appear INTJ (and there's quite a few examples of that on this board), but actually isn't because he's still NiFeTiSe. There's a difference between NiTi INFJ and NiTe INTJ, even if they both fall under iNtuitive and Thinking end of the spectrum with regards to the four dichotomies.
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
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  6. #66
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Ah, I see. Sorry for that, I... err, officially revoke my BS about functions. Kind of.

  7. #67
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    No, they don't. But they provide a possible explanation for the abovementioned phenomenon.
    No disagreement there.

    I was simply pointing out that the fact that you've seen a couple of threads about intuitives bashing sensors doesn't mean this is a common symptom IRL; by thinking that, you ignore the problematic nature of the sample (size, access to the Internet etc.)
    I certainly know that my intuitive friends don't engage in this behaviour but I'm only focusing on the stereotypes being promoted on this forum. Intuitives in real life aren't exposed to MBTI and thus are unlikely to engage in this whole sensor bashing. HOWEVER to be fair I see this problem manifesting itself outside in real life, regardless of MBTI.

    It's not exactly new.
    People who consider other people to be shallow.
    People who consider other people to be illogical.

    I doubt most intuitives will identify themselves with shallowness, yet even without MBTI. There are many situations where the majority are accused of being short sighted etc.

    IIRC there is no 100% correlation between types (the dichotomies, the foundation of MBTI) and the functions often associated with them. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong
    The top two functions (Perceiving and Judgement) seem to be consistant within most type.
    FJs - Fe
    TP - Ti
    TJ - Te
    SJ - Si
    NJ - Ni and so fourth.

    I personally don't believe in strict function ordering, and am a little sketchy on function specific usage i.e. Fi as shadow functions etc or 'witch' but granted there might be something behind Lenore Thompsons ideas of functions used in specific orders etc. Ti used by a dominant user as opposed to secondary/teritary.

    It's the reason that people often argue that an INFP is extremely different from an INFJ. The J/P switch changes things completely, although there exists people that are somewhat blurred within the system which is to be expected.

    I thought you said "Si seeks turth, Ni and Ne don't", which I found a little funny after your complaint of inaccuracy. Now I understand what you're talking about.
    My bad. Yeah.

  8. #68
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Sorry I clarified my post. Bah~
    I actually used you as an example of my point from a thread a long time ago marking the difference between Ni and Si.
    Fun. I like being the INFJ prototype without knowing I'm the INFJ prototype. But which thread? I just jumped in the middle of this discussion.

    When I look towards the future, when I'm attempting to predict an outcome. I'm only interested in what is the most likely outcome.
    As am I. There is a single-minded focus on that one outcome, although I'm aware of alternatives. I think the difference is in how we predict outcomes/meaning and what is focused on in coming to that conclusion. And (edit) these predicted outcomes may be likely different.

  9. #69
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Intuitives in real life aren't exposed to MBTI and thus are unlikely to engage in this whole sensor bashing.
    As far as I know, MBTI is being discussed and used outside forums and online communities, and many open-eyed sensors and intuitives are "exposed" to it without clashing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    It's not exactly new.
    People who consider other people to be shallow.
    People who consider other people to be illogical.
    Yeah, well... I can't really say anything about this. It has always been like this, rightly or wrongly. It's clearly a mistake to think that 'sensor' = 'shallow and illogical' for example, and it's also a mistake to decline the system because of some misguided idiots suffering from narcistic personality disorder.

    I still don't think these misconceptions prove the 'failure' of the MBTI, but I don't have anything more to add to the subject.

  10. #70
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Kai:

    I don't want to go back now and quote all of your posts, but...

    You seem to be understanding a lot of the limitations I see in MBTI, and the way I presented a few of them better than a lot of people have so far. I'm glad you understood where I was going with my post, it seems like no one else got it and totally grilled me. It's beginning to seem ISFJs (or at least you) understand how I think better than a lot of others do.

    Although, in response to that thing about Si seeking truth... I don't think any perceiving function seeks truth. Perceiving functions just find input that might or might not be truth. If there's a truth-seeking function, it would be Ti. Be very careful of falling into the belief that your dominant function is truth-seeking, that's a very dangerous kind of arrogance.

    You seem to have a bit of confusion between Ni and Ne, though. Ni doesn't entertain random possibilities, it tends to focus on the most likely one. The difference is that Ni makes leaps or skips steps, doesn't always stick to the map made earlier, etc.

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