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  1. #51
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    This is a great example except for the part about not providing simple companionship? Eh...what? That seems like an awfully specific thing to say about all NFs. I don't think that's true.
    I know, I don't agree with it either. Maybe the SF would bake cookies to take and the NF would stop by the bakery store on the way back from campagining at city hall against the unfair laws (or just spend the day thinking about it)? But I don't think NF would necessarily overlook visiting someone or brining them things to make their stay more easy.

  2. #52
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I know, I don't agree with it either. Maybe the SF would bake cookies to take and the NF would stop by the bakery store on the way back from campagining at city hall against the unfair laws (or just spend the day thinking about it)? But I don't think NF would necessarily overlook visiting someone or brining them things to make their stay more easy.
    I said "more likely to neglect" in comparison to the SF. That doesn't mean most NFs are emotionally negligent, just that they're more likely than an SF (all other things equal) to neglect real-world responsibilities of any kind because they tend to aim for broader scope moral causes.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #53
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    True. Being present in this world costs me a lot of effort and drains me, and S's seem to have no prob whatsoever with this. Totally envy them for that...
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  4. #54
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    .....

    *Reminds himself that theoretical MBTI is being used which may have little correlation or bearing to real life*

    Last thoughts on the subject:

    Is there much use for model that promotes false understanding of humans?
    Are people just extrapolating based on generalisations?
    Are we attempting to capture reality and explaining it via the model?

    There's all this theory for what people do, yet there's little explanation why. Example:
    "Sensors love facts more than theory" - Oh, why is that? Is that definitely true? How many people resonate with this statement?
    Fair enough if this thread wasn't to question the foundations of MBTI but still.

    Another thing to take into consideration: Why does there exist a N bias in MBTI testing to the extent that people mistype themselves? You could claim that MBTI is only a matter of preference and that their interest in theories is because they are well developed intuitively, or it could be that the model is not that great at reflecting reality.

    PS. If it's not clear what I'm writing. I'm not talking about specific exceptions to the model, but that the generalisations redefining to fit the majority of people. Functions can manifests itself in many various ways.

  5. #55
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    .There's all this theory for what people do, yet there's little explanation why. Example:
    "Sensors love facts more than theory" - Oh, why is that? Is that definitely true? How many people resonate with this statement?
    Fair enough if this thread wasn't to question the foundations of MBTI but still.
    S-type people mostly gain information through their senses, right? It seems logical that recalling past experiences and processing information through senses are more useful in dealing with facts than abstract theoretical ideas, that's why most Sensors prefer facts over theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Why does there exist a N bias in MBTI testing to the extent that people mistype themselves?
    I'm still inexperienced in MBTI, and I've never heard of this stuff before O_o
    What is this 'N bias', care to explain?

  6. #56
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Litvyak;655012]S-type people mostly gain information through their senses, right? It seems logical that recalling past experiences and processing information through senses are more useful in dealing with facts than abstract theoretical ideas, that's why most Sensors prefer facts over theory.[quote]

    Where would Ne or Ni be without sensory input?
    Data by themselves serve no purpose, it requires a theory to serve a purpose. For example: Most people see gravity as a fact, but it's technically a theory. Facts derived from senses aren't exactly infalliable considering perception (5 senses) itself is falliable. Having said that I do collect alot of information from my senses, and I also extrapolate data to create hypothetical guidelines and rules. Are we claiming that intuitives don't do this? That their created data is based more on limited data?

    I'm still inexperienced in MBTI, and I've never heard of this stuff before O_o
    What is this 'N bias', care to explain?
    Read the descriptions of sensors and make a comparison.
    MBTI was created by intuitives, there will always be a slight bias towards intuition. This is also reflected by the fact that people here, INTPcentral and INFPgc believe that there are sensors that have mistyped themselves as intuitives. Why would they do that though? Because the descriptions of intuition is much more nicer. Here's an example of what I mean ->
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...different.html

    I had the same reaction at the beginning but I was always certain that I'm an sensor. If you look over threads from the past, you'll quickly notice that there are constantly threads bashing sensors.http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...tml#post528354
    This isn't practiced by all intuitives however.

    Another personal antedote:
    I'm often labelled as clumsy or silly. I put my boots on backwards (They were pretty comfy), I'm constantly losing stuff and I'm often unaware of changes (It took me a week to realise that my INFP friend had changed her hair colour)

    It doesn't fit the whole sensors being aware of their environment description very well does it? Perhaps I'm a broken ISFJ but the fact that this exists within my reality shows me that these generalisations aren't true, but are based on observations of what S do and then taken as truth. Hmm Oh dear...
    I chalk down my obliviousness to introversion and focus. It's true that even though I don't notice much about appearance etc, I'm aware of the 'vibe' that's going around in my environment because that's what I'm interested in. I'm constantly in my head, however the major difference is that I'm not engaging in Ne or neccessarily Ne, but thinking about the past and dealing with problems (Which granted are grounded in the present but they needn't be. For example: Entertaining ethical questions is one of my favourite hobbies.)

    Now I know that this might just end up being a...
    "Oh but MBTI doesn't try to explain individuals, it's only a skeleton"
    But that's what I'm going against exactly. The skeleton descriptions aren't accurate. There are some parts which are and those are usually the cognitive functions themselves, I can see in other sensors the usage of Se or Si. But those traits can manifest themselves in such a huge variety of way that attempting to chalk down activities to sensors seems to be soo off-base that it's completely useless and more importantly seemingly inaccurate. Like I said earlier: Is there much point encouraging a model that promotes false understanding of generalised human behaviour?

    Things like "SF" are more likely to bake cookies or cater immediate emotional need like comfort etc. :steam: The hidden message behind this is that SFs aren't dealing with the more deeper emotions when helping another individual. It also unconsciously perpetuates the idea that somehow SFs are more inept at experiencing deeper emotional feelings because they don't help others (Yes these are some of the things posted in the past, it's almost akin to the idea that Ts are robots and don't experience emotions). I completely object at the idea that I don't understand my feelings deeply or that I have a limited understanding of other peoples emotions. You see problems?

    Ah dammit. Got tricked into another forum debate >_>
    It's no wonder I'm failing my exams.


  7. #57
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Where would Ne or Ni be without sensory input?
    Why do you even ask? Nobody told you that intuitives don't use their senses or that sensors don't "create hypothetical guidelines and rules". Though I certainly lack experience in this field, I think it can be said that if it's easier for me to collect data - because of my sophisticated senses or whatever - than abstract reasoning, and I rely more on the former than on the latter, gathering facts will be more enjoyable than creating systems, which doesn't mean I don't practice them both in everyday life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Are we claiming that intuitives don't do this?
    Are you claiming anything I said before truly implies your assumption?
    I don't think your statements contradict mine.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    Why do you even ask? Nobody told you that intuitives don't use their senses or that sensors don't "create hypothetical guidelines and rules". Though I certainly lack experience in this field, I think it can be said that if it's easier for me to collect data - because of my sophisticated senses or whatever - than abstract reasoning, and I rely more on the former than on the latter, gathering facts will be more enjoyable than creating systems, which doesn't mean I don't practice them both in everyday life.

    Are you claiming anything I said before truly implies your assumption?
    I don't think your statements contradict mine.
    It doesn't. That was a rhetorical question where I knew the answer was most likely to be no. In the same manner that I know that intuitives will also engage in sensory perception. I'm not sure how much I agree with this idea that sensors somehow have better sensory abilities. It's one of those things I feel fall more into the realm of interest which is not determined by MBTI.

    I've noted the only difference between myself and other NJs is that I'm more interested in the theory that captures reality accurately where N types are more willing to entertain that theory and other theories that don't neccessarily capture reality so well. Si seeks the truth, Ni and Ne seem more to entertain other possabilities purely for their own sake. This is the only reason I don't really disagree with the concept that sensors are more 'pragmatical' as they are more focused on practical application and thus the best solution. But one first has to define what 'application' means.

    I'm willing to listen to others experience, if we clash there will be problems. Either my assessment of reality is wrong, yours, both, we're missing extra data or there is a misunderstanding of some sort.

  9. #59
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    MBTI was created by intuitives, there will always be a slight bias towards intuition.
    Not necessarily, that alone is far from convincing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    If you look over threads from the past, you'll quickly notice that there are constantly threads bashing sensors.
    Perhaps because some intuitives feel frustrated by the fact that they are percieved as odd lunatics by sensors IRL (the majority of society)? Observing online communities only may lead to false conclusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    It doesn't fit the whole sensors being aware of their environment description very well does it? Perhaps I'm a broken ISFJ but the fact that this exists within my reality shows me that these generalisations aren't true
    *shrug* Perhaps you really aren't an ISFJ, or an ISFJ with weak sensing preference and a helluva lot of personal problems. Plus, I think you may be overestimating the importance of functions.

    Be prepared that no description will cover your personality perfectly, that would require 7 billion personality types - which doesn't mean that the whole system is wrong. It only "promotes false understanding of generalised human behaviour" if you take everything word for word, which isn't exactly the wisest behavior in case of such an ambiguous field as psychology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Si seeks the truth, Ni and Ne seem more to entertain other possabilities purely for their own sake.
    That's almost as disturbing as if I'd say "SF are more likely to bake cookies"

  10. #60
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    I've noted the only difference between myself and other NJs is that I'm more interested in the theory that captures reality accurately where N types are more willing to entertain that theory and other theories that don't neccessarily capture reality so well. Si seeks the truth, Ni and Ne seem more to entertain other possabilities purely for their own sake.
    I've always considered myself a truth-seeker. I think one way I use Ni is in finding hidden meanings in order to arrive at the truth.

    Though I agree with the point you (or was it someone else?) made earlier about differentiating Si and Se, and Ni and Ne.

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