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  1. #41
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    No, no... you see, sensors ARE supposed to BE the mob. We intuitive types are the victims of the mob.

    That's the way the picture has been painted.
    I disagree utterly with your assessment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, I noticed that when I would talk to people on here about sensing, the traits you see described on typical MBTI websites somehow got twisted into negative forms, and a bunch of emotional baggage (mostly from INPs who believe their parents were SJs) got added into the mix.
    Most of the "stuff" posted on this site is a factor of maturity level, and has little to do with type.

    So please refrain from lumping all of us INP's into your agenda.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    So essentially, we're stuck with a flawed picture painted in a way that favors Intuitives, because that's what ended up being the most comforting and useful for the majority of the systems users. Sometimes truth has nothing to do with what people see, or even what they need to see.
    You're making broad, over-arching generalizations here. Most NF's, once they type accurately, realize they're not ALONE. Do you grasp that? MBTI, in my opinion, has nothing to do with appealing to a mass market of NF's (or NT's) for that matter. How do you see the "picture painted" in favor of intuitives? Read the descriptions again and you'll realize very quickly that there's much to recommend against intuitives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Okay, I don't think MBTI works as well as people think it does. I think it's meant to be a self-development tool only, and doesn't work well when applied to other people, or otherwise used in an objective way. It especially shouldn't be used to describe groups, because it's not designed for that at all. It doesn't hold up to that kind of pressure.
    Of course MBTI is not meant to "cookie-cutter define" each person in the world! Anyone who sees it as such is abusing the intention of the entire system of categorization. MBTI is broad brush-strokes, not fine detailing. But is does have application to help people at least appreciate that we are all unique and all the same in some ways. It can help to foster appreciation and understanding in many different settings. You're missing the whole point if you think that MBTI cannot describe groups of preferences, that it can't "hold up to that kind of pressure". That's EXACTLY what it does do.

  2. #42
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I disagree utterly with your assessment.
    You have that right.

    Most of the "stuff" posted on this site is a factor of maturity level, and has little to do with type.

    So please refrain from lumping all of us INP's into your agenda.
    That's not what I meant. I said mostly, because the majority of people on the site (and who use MBTI) are INPs. Not because INPs are more biased in this direction than other types.
    You're making broad, over-arching generalizations here. Most NF's, once they type accurately, realize they're not ALONE. Do you grasp that? MBTI, in my opinion, has nothing to do with appealing to a mass market of NF's (or NT's) for that matter. How do you see the "picture painted" in favor of intuitives? Read the descriptions again and you'll realize very quickly that there's much to recommend against intuitives.
    I'm not talking about the descriptions, I'm talking about the way the descriptions are often construed by most people who use MBTI, and how these extrapolations are spread through the community.


    Of course MBTI is not meant to "cookie-cutter define" each person in the world! Anyone who sees it as such is abusing the intention of the entire system of categorization. MBTI is broad brush-strokes, not fine detailing.

    But is does have application to help people at least appreciate that we are all unique and all the same in some ways. It can help to foster appreciation and understanding in many different settings.
    I agree with you here.
    You're missing the whole point if you think that MBTI cannot describe groups of preferences, that it can't "hold up to that kind of pressure". That's EXACTLY what it does do.
    It is used that way, but not wisely. People can make it hold up to that kind of pressure, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

    I'm sorry I said anything, I wish I had kept my mouth shut. This is why I never tell people what I really think. It's not worth it.

  3. #43
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    I don't really find ISFP to be judgemental.

    One of the two ESFP that I know well is pretty stiffly judgemental of other people and pretty libertine with herself, but she's got some kind of personality disorder going on or something.

  4. #44
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I don't really find ISFP to be judgemental.

    One of the two ESFP that I know well is pretty stiffly judgemental of other people and pretty libertine with herself, but she's got some kind of personality disorder going on or something.
    I would agree with that. That's always been where it broke down for me.

    I knew a really interesting ISFP once, and they weren't judgmental at all. Pretended to be an xNTJ so people wouldn't underestimate their intelligence, and was really good at it. Never told anyone except the people they knew really well.

    In fact, I was kind of worried about them because they were too accepting of a lot of people I wouldn't have trusted. It always got them into really bad spots, or around people who made them feel bad about themselves. I think I'm far more judgmental than the typical SFP, but I think that might be a good thing.

  5. #45
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    I think explaining a little of ESFJ vs. ENFJ is a good way to conceptualize it.

    ESFJ is very aware of the immediate and personal needs of his own family unit, which is most important. SF is good at providing material comforts.

    ENFJ directs this feeling toward this broad, idealistic altruism. ENFJs are often involved with volunteer work or other actively positive ways of contributing to the greater good. NFs seem to believe in Karma or similar concepts pretty frequently; they're not as attentive to things like body language and the practical needs of others, because their scope is broader.

    NFs are more likely to consider themselves part of important moral causes...I think I've mentioned this before, but I like it, so: There's a scene in The Brothers Karamazov where Aloyosha (INFP) breaks down and cries because his depraved, sensualist ESTP father spits on a cross.

    The SF response would be immediate disgust; that's cruel and disrespectful--and that makes people feel bad.

    The NF response sees all the implications of the true depth of hatred this represents in his father, and Aloyosha breaks down and cries.


    Another example: an INFP friend's brother was arrested for selling pot; she said she wished she could do something to change marijuana laws so this wouldn't happen to anyone. A more likely SF response would be to bring him some food or blankets (not to mention simple companionship, which the NF is more likely to neglect) or other practical need while he's in jail.

    NF is broader in scope and can theoretically accomplish more, but is comparatively negligent. SF's comparative strength is in instinctual response to the body language, visual/physical appearance and needs of individuals in the immediate environment.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #46
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    That's not what I meant. I said mostly, because the majority of people on the site (and who use MBTI) are INPs.
    How do you know the majority of people who use MBTI are INP's? Perhaps they are prevalent on this site, but IRL, please point to evidence to corroborate this claim.

    And btw, head smacks are unnecessary, k?

    If you feel that you experience "post backlash" from time to time, permit me an observation: you are sometimes full of the stereotyping that you admonish with one keystroke but perpetuate with the next.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I'm sorry I said anything, I wish I had kept my mouth shut. This is why I never tell people what I really think. It's not worth it.
    It's important to say what you think, you just need to bear in mind the weight of your words. And that sentence smacks of self-pity, so cheer up because we all still send you these ...

  7. #47
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    SF feeling is not necessarily more judgmental. We just have a clearer lens with which to see/feel the physical world. NF's may be more judgmental in your N ways, but you're very nonjudgmental about S things. That's because you're not an S and don't feel comfortable judging S things?

  8. #48
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I knew a really interesting ISFP once, and they weren't judgmental at all. Pretended to be an xNTJ so people wouldn't underestimate their intelligence...
    Here's a good example: this could be misinterpreted to mean you knew one interesting ISFP out of ALL the ones you have ever met.

    You also potentially insult other ISFP's in the next sentence by saying in order to be accepted as intelligent, they would have to pretend to be xNTJ. (As though everyone thinks an ISFP is a simpleton? NOT!) I have friends who I would guess as ISFP and they need pretend to be nothing but themselves in order for me to admire their intelligence and wisdom.

    Just my thoughts; I don't want to seem like I am being hard on you but I think you are unaware of how your words frequently communicate double meanings, secondary conclusions and sweeping generalizations.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post


    Another example: an INFP friend's brother was arrested for selling pot; she said she wished she could do something to change marijuana laws so this wouldn't happen to anyone. A more likely SF response would be to bring him some food or blankets (not to mention simple companionship, which the NF is more likely to neglect) or other practical need while he's in jail.

    .
    This is a great example except for the part about not providing simple companionship? Eh...what? That seems like an awfully specific thing to say about all NFs. I don't think that's true.

  10. #50
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    How do you know the majority of people who use MBTI are INP's? Perhaps they are prevalent on this site, but IRL, please point to evidence to corroborate this claim.

    And btw, head smacks are unnecessary, k?
    Evidence? I have no evidence. Only theories. If you expect hard evidence, you're taking me far too seriously.

    If you feel that you experience "post backlash" from time to time, permit me an observation: you are sometimes full of the stereotyping that you admonish with one keystroke but perpetuate with the next.
    Okay... sorry. I don't know what to say or do about that. It could be true. I'm so confused that I don't feel comfortable talking about this anymore.
    It's important to say what you think, you just need to bear in mind the weight of your words. And that sentence smacks of self-pity, so cheer up because we all still send you these ...
    If my words have this much weight, I'm never going to open my mouth again. I don't want that kind of responsibility.
    Here's a good example: this could be misinterpreted to mean you knew one interesting ISFP out of ALL the ones you have ever met.
    It could also mean that I've only met one that I know of. In this case it did. Why assume the worst?
    You also potentially insult other ISFP's in the next sentence by saying in order to be accepted as intelligent, they would have to pretend to be xNTJ. (As though everyone thinks an ISFP is a simpleton? NOT!) I have friends who I would guess as ISFP and they need pretend to be nothing but themselves in order for me to admire their intelligence and wisdom.
    No, no, no... that's not it. I meant only that THEY thought they had to pretend to be an xNTJ to be perceived as intelligent, and did so effectively. I didn't meant to imply that I believed that ISFPs were stupid or had to pretend. If anything, the fact that they could successfully pretend would imply that they were very intelligent. Goodness, why are people so desperate to find the worst possible interpretation of everything I say?

    Just my thoughts; I don't want to seem like I am being hard on you but I think you are unaware of how your words frequently communicate double meanings, secondary conclusions and sweeping generalizations.
    Then I'll shut up. I can't monitor my expressions to the degree I would need to in order to satisfy you. I give up. You win. I'm sorry I was ever born, okay?!

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