[ENFJ] ENFj's relationships!

[Kungpowish]

My experience too.

I will add that with the particular ENFJ males I know, they seem amused by my Fi & it's bluntness. They think it is funny that I am "mean" (lack of Fe), which is cool as other people may feel I'm abrasive. I suppose I haven't had too much Fe & Fi clashing with them because they just have a great sense of humor.

Well, most of us can tell what someone means by something. So as long as someone is not actually mean yeah it can be fun. But some Fi people are actually mean, or at least don't seem to care about the feelings of those around them, that's not funny.

 

[OrangeAppled]

Well, most of us can tell what someone means by something. So as long as someone is not actually mean yeah it can be fun. But some Fi people are actually mean, or at least don't seem to care about the feelings of those around them, that's not funny.

Well, I'm not mean like that....more ornery & feisty, and I can have a dry humor that they actually get.

 

[Scott N Denver]

I remember when my ENFJ friend said something like "Oh I get it now, you actually MEAN what you say!" At the time I found that a very odd statement [why yes, of course, I meant what I said, don't people normally mean what they say???] I also remember a comment like "I'm not as good as you" which I contextually interpreted along the lines of "I am not as saintly as you and I can't keep up with/operate on the level of your Fi". But there were group situations where my Fi didn't do what Fe deemed appropriate, and other times where my deeply felt Fi feelings were criticized for not sounding "convincing enough." In reference to the "not sounding convincing", I remember thinking at the time "I hope you never have to understand where I'm at right now or where that statement came from or why it sounded the way it did". Those were not pretty times. Spending time with that ENFJ was great, but the situations I was around before that were definitely not F_ positive. Physics grad school is NOT a good place for NF's, or having F, or expressing/manifesting F.

 

[Udog]

I really like and relate to your explanation, Udog. I find that I'm considered rather intense (even when totally quiet) and vaguely insane though well-meaning. INFP guys aren't hard to break (they're tough mentally), but I think my Fe-primary makes them feel like they're being roasted alive! Having said that, I think ENFJs and INFPs can be very happy together. (And I must admit to having had more than a few INFP boy crushes too...)

Personally, I could see ENFJ being a viable possibility for me, but unlike with INFJs and ENFPs I have no real-life experience to draw from. I know from my experiences with INFJs that I would have a couple of caveats and red flags to watch out for. Fi + Fe works wonderfully when it works, but it's a pretty big chasm to cross!

I think part of the reason the xxTP connection works is because they have Fe, so they understand where the ENFJ is coming from, but generally lack intense empathy. They get you, they care, but they don't feel with you. Chances of getting overwhelmed are slim and rare.

INFPs, when we are aware of someone's emotions at all, usually have pretty intense empathy. Luckily, many INFPs excel at absorbing and dealing with that kind of stuff, which is what I think makes the ENFJ/INFP relationship very intimate at that level. INFPs role with the punches with an ENFJ.

The problem is that in a relationship, I can see those blows chipping away at my defenses, bit by bit. Doubly true if directed at me. I'd need the ENFJ to help build those back up during the happier times, for sure. Without that, eventually they'd punch through, and yeah, I can't imagine that being very pleasant at all. For me, it would be death by one thousand needles vs being flame-broiled, though.

In the other direction, there is a tendency for the INFP to bury emotions. We feel them, but don't express them. We don't always hold them in out of nobility, either, but sometimes we like to think we are. The ENFJ needs and deserves to have them expressed. This problem is certainly more common in the INFP male, who probably learned at an early age to hide emotions.

A lot of me wishes I could end up marrying an ENFJ someday, but as a male INFP there's definitely factors making that harder/less likely.

Just remember, at the end of the day you gotta throw away the theory. It's not INFP(m) and a ENFJ(f)... it's just you and the lady you care for. MBTI doesn't have statistics for that sort of thing.

 

[SpottingTrains]

ENFJ's tend to very much adapt themselves to the collective social situation, but seem to really notch up the intensity one -on-one. Especially when they really want to understand someone and "get" who they are as a person.

I agree completely with this. I love one to one conversations and I think I do come off as having a rather intense aura.

 

[chris1207]

I think that ENFJ's have to learn to not be so intense and sometimes overbearing and sometimes controlling. They could definitely lose the infp that way. What are some negatives about INFP's? PPL don't talk about those too much, I assume, because INFP's don't have a tendency to rile ppl up. They just do their own thing...

 

[The Grand Chameleon]

I think that ENFJ's have to learn to not be so intense and sometimes overbearing and sometimes controlling.

A healthy ENFJ must learn tact, so that he/she might become unhealthy and see these, "weaknesses" for what they really are: tools. Give people what they want to see in you, and they will come to you.

 

[g_vartan]

I think that ENFJ's have to learn to not be so intense and sometimes overbearing and sometimes controlling. They could definitely lose the infp that way.

This also happened in my relationship with an INTP. I don't know if I can do this; I wish I can. I can definitely be intense/passionate. It's so rare for me to find someone that I *really* like that when I do, I kinda go ga-ga It's really hard to reign it in sometimes.

 

[Domino]

I'm extremely particular too, G. Or simply Ni-oblivious until something yanks my head around. That's how I met my ISTP and ENTP ex-bfs. I had no intention of liking either one of them, but they made themselves material, and I fell hard for both of them. It's nice when you can just be yourself and no one's criticizing you.

I liked them both because not only could they handle my high octane nature, they seemed to encourage it. Not in a bad way either. Just seemed to like the wall of fire.

I had an INTP bf, and I think he saw me in both a positive and negative way - I think ultimately he decided that I was too much. That was very disappointing, and I felt undermined because I never pointed that finger at him. It seemed ludicrous too when he said this to me and then went after ESTxs who are forces of nature.

To be so judged, to be determined as not as great as they thought you were... yes. That hurts. That hurts quite a lot. I knew an INTP that I really liked who didn't mind me at all - I think he saw me very clearly for what I was - but he was married.

I feel that ENFJs are the true shadow of ISTPs - we're reflecting their lower spectrum Fe heat. We're the flip side of a very intense calm type. The mayhem has to go SOMEWHERE...

 

[g_vartan]

...I had an INTP bf, and I think he saw me in both a positive and negative way - I think ultimately he decided that I was too much. That was very disappointing, and I felt undermined because I never pointed that finger at him...

To be so judged, to be determined as not as great as they thought you were... yes. That hurts. That hurts quite a lot...

I feel that ENFJs are the true shadow of ISTPs - we're reflecting their lower spectrum Fe heat. We're the flip side of a very intense calm type. The mayhem has to go SOMEWHERE...

This really hit home for me. This is exactly what occurred to me as well. My self-esteem took a real hit as I opened up to him as I have never done before, only to be hit where I am emotionally vulnerable. That experience forever changed me. I'm more logical, more guarded, and more deliberate/thoughtful now because of this experience. But I'm afraid I lost my idealism and romantic innocence.

I'm mad at myself that I can't let go of this relationship, i.e., no communication, no romantic feelings. Perhaps ENFJs have a bit of masochist to them --- I see the best in others, their potential, and make excuses or justifications for their bad behavior or criticisms. I still hope that things could change; he has made effort to show me that he's made progress. But I'm not sure if one could really re-start a relationship with someone whose broke your heart.

"ENFJs know and appreciate people. Like most NFs, (and Feelers in general), they are apt to neglect themselves and their own needs for the needs of others. They have thinner psychological boundaries than most, and are at risk for being hurt or even abused by less sensitive people."

 

[Scott N Denver]

Do people think that ENFJ's generally have thinner psychological boundaries than do INFP's?

I read somewhere that INFP's generally have an extremely strong sense of self [ie they no who they are], but tend to be somewhat deficient in dealing with others, and in particular situating themselves within a group. ENFJ's are the opposite, they innately know what groups want and can adjust themselves to provide that. However, supposedly they aren't good at blocking out that external/social noise and seeing themselves for who they innately are [as opposed to how they adapt to any particular individual and that individuals needs]. I could be remembering this wrong, or explaining it wrong though.

Thoughts?

Also, do you feel "thrown around by your passions?" Perhaps relatedly, in your experience do INFP's tend to "ground" you, or at least accept your being thrown around and even try to follow along for your benefit?

 

[Domino]

This really hit home for me. This is exactly what occurred to me as well. My self-esteem took a real hit as I opened up to him as I have never done before, only to be hit where I am emotionally vulnerable. That experience forever changed me. I'm more logical, more guarded, and more deliberate/thoughtful now because of this experience. But I'm afraid I lost my idealism and romantic innocence.

Dear me. I'm sorry. We run off of magic, and I'd hate to see your vitality siphoned away by a careless man. I don't think other people realize how easy it is to crush us. We hold up under a tremendous lot of strain, we have to as Fe-primaries, but betrayal isn't one of those strains we handle without some buckling. For me, it borders on catastrophic/extinction level depending on the personal importance of who did it to me. My ENFP sister says when I fade and stop speaking is when she gets angry and worried. (And then she destroys the offender with her awesome Don't Mess With My Sister ray gun).

This reaction is NOT for everyone. It's reserved for those who've managed to get past my security systems and were deeply trusted.

I'm mad at myself that I can't let go of this relationship, i.e., no communication, no romantic feelings.

So you're still in it?

Perhaps ENFJs have a bit of masochist to them --- I see the best in others, their potential, and make excuses or justifications for their bad behavior or criticisms. I still hope that things could change; he has made effort to show me that he's made progress. But I'm not sure if one could really re-start a relationship with someone whose broke your heart.

I'm going to be honest here - there are certain betrayals you simply can't recover from. Those vary by person and situation. For me, there's a short list of things you must never do to me, serious things, things I make very obvious, or else I'm out the door. Once my trust is obliterated, I can't love you, not like that. From a distance, yes. In principle, yes. But never again as an integral part of me.

For those whom I've loved very dearly, when they betray me or do something awful to me, I find myself being very angry and taking measures to protect myself/others from them, while crying and helplessly trying to make what they did less hurtful, less awful or mean. I find myself furious and grieving my heart out for the separation that I never wanted in the first place.

I remember after a rare and bad argument between me and my ISTP bff, we were separated for days, and when we finally saw each other again, I grabbed on and started crying. I could see how much he missed me and I missed him, and he hugged me really tight and said "We're never doing that again... I mean it..." His heart was hammering. Fighting with him felt awful to both of us. Bad fights can happen without betrayal occurring.

 

[Domino]

Do people think that ENFJ's generally have thinner psychological boundaries than do INFP's?

I read somewhere that INFP's generally have an extremely strong sense of self [ie they no who they are], but tend to be somewhat deficient in dealing with others, and in particular situating themselves within a group. ENFJ's are the opposite, they innately know what groups want and can adjust themselves to provide that. However, supposedly they aren't good at blocking out that external/social noise and seeing themselves for who they innately are [as opposed to how they adapt to any particular individual and that individuals needs]. I could be remembering this wrong, or explaining it wrong though.

Thoughts?

Also, do you feel "thrown around by your passions?" Perhaps relatedly, in your experience do INFP's tend to "ground" you, or at least accept your being thrown around and even try to follow along for your benefit?

Yes. I feel in Technicolor which is why I have to protect myself from waves of other peoples' emotions.

INFPs are SO TOUGH. Mentally, like they're steel-clad. I can only admire that sort of fortitude. The INFPs I know deeply empathize with my NF nature, and prove to be quite the focusing mechanism, like rods catching and grounding lightning. They tend to be very protective of me too, like they can sense my weaknesses.

 

[g_vartan]

Do people think that ENFJ's generally have thinner psychological boundaries than do INFP's?
?

ENFJs are so externally focused, usually have an open door policy, and often take on more of the burdens of others than they can bear. They tend to idealize their relationships to a higher plane than reality; and highly likely to value the other person's needs often than their own. It puts ENFJs often in a very vulnerable spot. ENFJ's tend to be more reserved about exposing themselves than other extraverted types and criticism from these very few people they extremely value is taken hard by ENFJs.

....This reaction is NOT for everyone. It's reserved for those who've managed to get past my security systems and were deeply trusted....So you're still in it?...For those whom I've loved very dearly, when they betray me or do something awful to me, I find myself being very angry and taking measures to protect myself/others from them, while crying and helplessly trying to make what they did less hurtful, less awful or mean. I find myself furious and grieving my heart out for the separation that I never wanted in the first place...I remember after a rare and bad argument between me and my ISTP bff, we were separated for days, and when we finally saw each other again, I grabbed on and started crying. I could see how much he missed me and I missed him, and he hugged me really tight and said "We're never doing that again... I mean it..." His heart was hammering. Fighting with him felt awful to both of us. Bad fights can happen without betrayal occurring.

Its kinda weird; I can handle *a lot* that others give, just not from him. I guess since he is one of the very few who I have shown my true self to, when he criticizes me, I feel that he is really speaking to my core. It cuts deep, even though his intentions isn't to hurt; its more because he is lacking the ability to be emotional sensitive and reciprocate appropriately. It also doesn't help that I do not always pay attention to my own needs and often do not ask for sweet words and loving affirmation....even though this is exactly what I need. I automatically think of the worst when this is not given; I'm really hard on myself and sometimes have a pessimistic outlook for things related to myself.

We seem to still be emotionally attached to one another. According to him, his hesitation to pursue a relationship before was due to distance, and work situation (we both worked at the same place), but given the latter is no longer an issue (he has recently quit), we've been recently talking about me possibly moving to his city.

Perhaps the reason why I continue is because I know my weakness -- I am sensitive to criticism. I came from a rather emotionally abusive family hence, when my INTP wasn't showing affection as much as I needed or didn't "reciprocate" as I expected, and when he said several insensitive things, I really took it *hard*. I guess I blame myself for a lot of the issues (even though he is far from perfect). I know I am emotionally stronger now, but I am not sure if I can handle future insensitive emotional outbursts (as INTPs sometimes do). My counselor said that I need to be particularly sensitive to this -- I tend to be attracted to insensitive folks because I had an insensitive father.

I can relate to what occurred between you and your ISTP bff. In a weird way, I feel that we kinda needed to tear each other up to get to a space where we were able to fully express what we were feeling and needing. The adjustment though was intense and harsh; yet, we are still both here. Our interactions are now more soft and expresses care. Perhaps this is part of growing up. Dunno. I'll probably see him in December for the first time in more than a year. I guess I'll get a better idea of what he and I am feeling then. I doubt my relationship skills now though -- perhaps I'm not the best judge of character or identifying those who are compatible with me.

Thanks Pink Its nice to know that others have had similar experiences; makes me feel a bit more "normal" (if there is such a thing).

 

[Scott N Denver]

Pink Piranha: "INFPs are SO TOUGH. Mentally, like they're steel-clad. I can only admire that sort of fortitude."

I always am a little taken-back when I hear things like this. Can you expand on this or explain it at all? We know our values and stick to them, and I guess we are much better than others at seeing others mental/emotional intrusiveness and fending it off. But don't others frequently see us as soft, passive, live and let live, dreamy, philosophical idealists? Hardly a Rambo-esque image! In fact, one of my work friends nicknamed me Rambo, because in his eyes it was the exact opposite of what I am! My response was just "dude, just don't call me Bambi!" I think F's may see me/us as tough/enduring, but T's no. I think I've made many a T laugh when I've brought that idea up. "Scott, you, tough. WTF?!?!?!?"

I think most people I know, at least from work anyways, would use words like: wimpy, excessively passive, too soft, weak, spineless, pus__, etc. But then again I do work with lots of T's. In particular, lots of IST's, NTJ's, and STJ's. Maybe they just don't see others emotional resilience? Maybe cuz many of them don't particularly see others emotions??? One coworker once said "Your such a pushover!" Maybe I've just met a lot of T's who take a bulldozer-ish approach to feelings and others. "I'll ignore or just run over it", or some such motto. After having been run over a lot, I'm always a little surprised when people see me/us as tough. That's all.

Thanks though, it's nice to feel appreciated/respected!

 

[OrangeAppled]

I think that ENFJ's have to learn to not be so intense and sometimes overbearing and sometimes controlling. They could definitely lose the infp that way. What are some negatives about INFP's? PPL don't talk about those too much, I assume, because INFP's don't have a tendency to rile ppl up. They just do their own thing...

Really? I find I rile people up by doing nothing at all.
Being quiet seriously annoys many extroverts. Because we are not gregarious, we get stuck with tags like cold, aloof, rude, self-absorbed, etc. We have to make a conscious & deliberate effort to come across as friendly to people. For me, I feel like I am acting in such a scenario. It's so phony & tiring, but it's that or be called a snob. People are offended by my doing nothing when they feel I should do something. They take my independence as a slight to their company.

Being guarded and not opening up easily to people actually hurts them & makes them feel like I am not interested in being close (I am...I just take time). INFPs generally have a wall up, and behind the wall they are buried 6 ft underground and curled up in an iron clad shell. Good luck getting inside .

And now in a total contradiction of what I just said, somehow criticism is this toxic smoke that filtrates into our shells and stings like a mother, and makes us come charging out with the ammunition strapped on (& the fact that I am comparing social interaction to battle says something right there).
Our extreme sensitivity and ability to see an insult where there is none is very annoying to others. We make people walk on eggshells. Then, they still are often way off in sensing what offends us & what doesn't. It's comical when I think of how people try to avoid hurting me when what they need/want to say will not hurt me, and then they later inadvertently deeply hurt me with something they thought was harmless.

INFPs who are more frustrated in life lose the floaty, peaceful Mother Theresa persona and start fitting the dark, angsty teenager persona (no matter how old). Think "Robert Smith". Dude comes off as whiny, melodramatic, and juvenile to many people.

Lastly, we're also just weirdos who are square pegs in the round ESTJ holes.
If everyone likes blue, I like green. If everyone goes right, I go left, etc. I'm always the voice of dissent, so I just stay quiet.

I will note that besides the sensitivity thing, I've found less conflict with ENFJs in my weak areas.

 

[OrangeAppled]

In fact, one of my work friends nicknamed me Rambo, because in his eyes it was the exact opposite of what I am!

The irony is, just wait til one of these guys violates one of your dearly held values & the inner Rambo comes out (see post above....ammunition strapped on :tongue).

 

[Scott N Denver]

Actually, I remembered after posting, I also told him not to call me Rambo, because whether he saw it or not or agreed with it or not I did feel like I had a bit of Rambo-type personality in me. So we mutually agreed that "Conan", as in Conan the Barbarian, was the better-opposite-of-me. Bubbles is his opposite, though I often will call him Jessica (Simpson), Britney (Spears), Paris (Hilton), or some other such popular anti-INTJ person.

 

[Scott N Denver]

OA, do you think that we INFP's are (mentally) tough? FWIW, I don't think that we aren't, but I'm so used to others not seeing it that I am surprised when someone else does see it. NF's are frequently perceptive into others, T's not so much IME. anyways

Oh, I don't usually: "INFPs generally have a wall up, and behind the wall they are buried 6 ft underground and curled up in an iron clad shell. Good luck getting inside." , but the more time I spend in my workplaces the more I wish I did! Interestingly enough, others have commented how hard it is to get into my head and understand it. My response to them was "yeah, good luck with that one. Even if do you get one part of what's going on in my head your still going to have all the like 600 other ones that won't make any sense to you!" Do you think most INFP's have serious walls up? I've rarely felt that way about INFP's personally, but then again I usually don't have a threatening presence so maybe people just feel more comfortable around me?

ENFJ's, sorry if were temporarily taking over your thread. We still love you, we promise!

 

[OrangeAppled]

OA, do you think that we INFP's are (mentally) tough? FWIW, I don't think that we aren't, but I'm so used to others not seeing it that I am surprised when someone else does see it. NF's are frequently perceptive into others, T's not so much IME. anyways

Oh, I don't usually: "INFPs generally have a wall up, and behind the wall they are buried 6 ft underground and curled up in an iron clad shell. Good luck getting inside." , but the more time I spend in my workplaces the more I wish I did! Interestingly enough, others have commented how hard it is to get into my head and understand it. My response to them was "yeah, good luck with that one. Even if do you get one part of what's going on in my head your still going to have all the like 600 other ones that won't make any sense to you!" Do you think most INFP's have serious walls up? I've rarely felt that way about INFP's personally, but then again I usually don't have a threatening presence so maybe people just feel more comfortable around me?

ENFJ's, sorry if were temporarily taking over your thread. We still love you, we promise!

I don't mean a wall as in something menacing, but we can be hard to get to know (as you said, "get in our head") and to get close to emotionally. I know this because people have commented on it to me also...they say I am "guarded". I might say I am "private".
As I noted though, we are sensitive, which is what I think you're alluding to in your work place atmosphere. That can make us seem soft & vulnerable.

I am not threatening either. I think I seem like a little doe-eyed deer in the headlights, and then I scurry away into the magical INFP la-la land forest and they have to scurry after me...and good luck catching me. Some people recognize I run away from fear, others are offended by it.

I think we are strong in that it's hard to get past our shell. If someone cannot grasp you or get close to you emotionally, they cannot hurt you deeply. We may be sensitive and get offended easily, but we're also resilient with those shallow hurts (thanks to Ne & Te I think). If someone gets inside to the warm & gooey part, I think they can do a lot of lasting damage though. That's why many of us stay guarded.
I also think we can seem tough when Fi's values are violated...as noted, we take a firm stand then that is impressive to others. Otherwise, yeah, we just go with the flow.

Okay...back to ENFJ talk