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  1. #71
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    Do people think that ENFJ's generally have thinner psychological boundaries than do INFP's?

    I read somewhere that INFP's generally have an extremely strong sense of self [ie they no who they are], but tend to be somewhat deficient in dealing with others, and in particular situating themselves within a group. ENFJ's are the opposite, they innately know what groups want and can adjust themselves to provide that. However, supposedly they aren't good at blocking out that external/social noise and seeing themselves for who they innately are [as opposed to how they adapt to any particular individual and that individuals needs]. I could be remembering this wrong, or explaining it wrong though.

    Thoughts?

    Also, do you feel "thrown around by your passions?" Perhaps relatedly, in your experience do INFP's tend to "ground" you, or at least accept your being thrown around and even try to follow along for your benefit?

  2. #72
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g_vartan View Post
    This really hit home for me. This is exactly what occurred to me as well. My self-esteem took a real hit as I opened up to him as I have never done before, only to be hit where I am emotionally vulnerable. That experience forever changed me. I'm more logical, more guarded, and more deliberate/thoughtful now because of this experience. But I'm afraid I lost my idealism and romantic innocence.
    Dear me. I'm sorry. We run off of magic, and I'd hate to see your vitality siphoned away by a careless man. I don't think other people realize how easy it is to crush us. We hold up under a tremendous lot of strain, we have to as Fe-primaries, but betrayal isn't one of those strains we handle without some buckling. For me, it borders on catastrophic/extinction level depending on the personal importance of who did it to me. My ENFP sister says when I fade and stop speaking is when she gets angry and worried. (And then she destroys the offender with her awesome Don't Mess With My Sister ray gun).

    This reaction is NOT for everyone. It's reserved for those who've managed to get past my security systems and were deeply trusted.


    I'm mad at myself that I can't let go of this relationship, i.e., no communication, no romantic feelings.
    So you're still in it?


    Perhaps ENFJs have a bit of masochist to them --- I see the best in others, their potential, and make excuses or justifications for their bad behavior or criticisms. I still hope that things could change; he has made effort to show me that he's made progress. But I'm not sure if one could really re-start a relationship with someone whose broke your heart.
    I'm going to be honest here - there are certain betrayals you simply can't recover from. Those vary by person and situation. For me, there's a short list of things you must never do to me, serious things, things I make very obvious, or else I'm out the door. Once my trust is obliterated, I can't love you, not like that. From a distance, yes. In principle, yes. But never again as an integral part of me.

    For those whom I've loved very dearly, when they betray me or do something awful to me, I find myself being very angry and taking measures to protect myself/others from them, while crying and helplessly trying to make what they did less hurtful, less awful or mean. I find myself furious and grieving my heart out for the separation that I never wanted in the first place.

    I remember after a rare and bad argument between me and my ISTP bff, we were separated for days, and when we finally saw each other again, I grabbed on and started crying. I could see how much he missed me and I missed him, and he hugged me really tight and said "We're never doing that again... I mean it..." His heart was hammering. Fighting with him felt awful to both of us. Bad fights can happen without betrayal occurring.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
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    AIS Holland code
    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  3. #73
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott N Denver View Post
    Do people think that ENFJ's generally have thinner psychological boundaries than do INFP's?

    I read somewhere that INFP's generally have an extremely strong sense of self [ie they no who they are], but tend to be somewhat deficient in dealing with others, and in particular situating themselves within a group. ENFJ's are the opposite, they innately know what groups want and can adjust themselves to provide that. However, supposedly they aren't good at blocking out that external/social noise and seeing themselves for who they innately are [as opposed to how they adapt to any particular individual and that individuals needs]. I could be remembering this wrong, or explaining it wrong though.

    Thoughts?

    Also, do you feel "thrown around by your passions?" Perhaps relatedly, in your experience do INFP's tend to "ground" you, or at least accept your being thrown around and even try to follow along for your benefit?
    Yes. I feel in Technicolor which is why I have to protect myself from waves of other peoples' emotions.

    INFPs are SO TOUGH. Mentally, like they're steel-clad. I can only admire that sort of fortitude. The INFPs I know deeply empathize with my NF nature, and prove to be quite the focusing mechanism, like rods catching and grounding lightning. They tend to be very protective of me too, like they can sense my weaknesses.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
    Neutral Good
    EII-Fi subtype, Ethical/Empath, Delta/Beta
    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
    Inquistive/Limbic
    AIS Holland code
    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  4. #74
    Member g_vartan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott N Denver View Post
    Do people think that ENFJ's generally have thinner psychological boundaries than do INFP's?
    ?
    ENFJs are so externally focused, usually have an open door policy, and often take on more of the burdens of others than they can bear. They tend to idealize their relationships to a higher plane than reality; and highly likely to value the other person's needs often than their own. It puts ENFJs often in a very vulnerable spot. ENFJ's tend to be more reserved about exposing themselves than other extraverted types and criticism from these very few people they extremely value is taken hard by ENFJs.

    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    ....This reaction is NOT for everyone. It's reserved for those who've managed to get past my security systems and were deeply trusted....So you're still in it?...For those whom I've loved very dearly, when they betray me or do something awful to me, I find myself being very angry and taking measures to protect myself/others from them, while crying and helplessly trying to make what they did less hurtful, less awful or mean. I find myself furious and grieving my heart out for the separation that I never wanted in the first place...I remember after a rare and bad argument between me and my ISTP bff, we were separated for days, and when we finally saw each other again, I grabbed on and started crying. I could see how much he missed me and I missed him, and he hugged me really tight and said "We're never doing that again... I mean it..." His heart was hammering. Fighting with him felt awful to both of us. Bad fights can happen without betrayal occurring.
    Its kinda weird; I can handle *a lot* that others give, just not from him. I guess since he is one of the very few who I have shown my true self to, when he criticizes me, I feel that he is really speaking to my core. It cuts deep, even though his intentions isn't to hurt; its more because he is lacking the ability to be emotional sensitive and reciprocate appropriately. It also doesn't help that I do not always pay attention to my own needs and often do not ask for sweet words and loving affirmation....even though this is exactly what I need. I automatically think of the worst when this is not given; I'm really hard on myself and sometimes have a pessimistic outlook for things related to myself.

    We seem to still be emotionally attached to one another. According to him, his hesitation to pursue a relationship before was due to distance, and work situation (we both worked at the same place), but given the latter is no longer an issue (he has recently quit), we've been recently talking about me possibly moving to his city.

    Perhaps the reason why I continue is because I know my weakness -- I am sensitive to criticism. I came from a rather emotionally abusive family hence, when my INTP wasn't showing affection as much as I needed or didn't "reciprocate" as I expected, and when he said several insensitive things, I really took it *hard*. I guess I blame myself for a lot of the issues (even though he is far from perfect). I know I am emotionally stronger now, but I am not sure if I can handle future insensitive emotional outbursts (as INTPs sometimes do). My counselor said that I need to be particularly sensitive to this -- I tend to be attracted to insensitive folks because I had an insensitive father.

    I can relate to what occurred between you and your ISTP bff. In a weird way, I feel that we kinda needed to tear each other up to get to a space where we were able to fully express what we were feeling and needing. The adjustment though was intense and harsh; yet, we are still both here. Our interactions are now more soft and expresses care. Perhaps this is part of growing up. Dunno. I'll probably see him in December for the first time in more than a year. I guess I'll get a better idea of what he and I am feeling then. I doubt my relationship skills now though -- perhaps I'm not the best judge of character or identifying those who are compatible with me.

    Thanks Pink Its nice to know that others have had similar experiences; makes me feel a bit more "normal" (if there is such a thing).

  5. #75
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    Pink Piranha: "INFPs are SO TOUGH. Mentally, like they're steel-clad. I can only admire that sort of fortitude."

    I always am a little taken-back when I hear things like this. Can you expand on this or explain it at all? We know our values and stick to them, and I guess we are much better than others at seeing others mental/emotional intrusiveness and fending it off. But don't others frequently see us as soft, passive, live and let live, dreamy, philosophical idealists? Hardly a Rambo-esque image! In fact, one of my work friends nicknamed me Rambo, because in his eyes it was the exact opposite of what I am! My response was just "dude, just don't call me Bambi!" I think F's may see me/us as tough/enduring, but T's no. I think I've made many a T laugh when I've brought that idea up. "Scott, you, tough. WTF?!?!?!?"

    I think most people I know, at least from work anyways, would use words like: wimpy, excessively passive, too soft, weak, spineless, pus__, etc. But then again I do work with lots of T's. In particular, lots of IST's, NTJ's, and STJ's. Maybe they just don't see others emotional resilience? Maybe cuz many of them don't particularly see others emotions??? One coworker once said "Your such a pushover!" Maybe I've just met a lot of T's who take a bulldozer-ish approach to feelings and others. "I'll ignore or just run over it", or some such motto. After having been run over a lot, I'm always a little surprised when people see me/us as tough. That's all.

    Thanks though, it's nice to feel appreciated/respected!

  6. #76
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris1207 View Post
    I think that ENFJ's have to learn to not be so intense and sometimes overbearing and sometimes controlling. They could definitely lose the infp that way. What are some negatives about INFP's? PPL don't talk about those too much, I assume, because INFP's don't have a tendency to rile ppl up. They just do their own thing...

    Really? I find I rile people up by doing nothing at all.
    Being quiet seriously annoys many extroverts. Because we are not gregarious, we get stuck with tags like cold, aloof, rude, self-absorbed, etc. We have to make a conscious & deliberate effort to come across as friendly to people. For me, I feel like I am acting in such a scenario. It's so phony & tiring, but it's that or be called a snob. People are offended by my doing nothing when they feel I should do something. They take my independence as a slight to their company.

    Being guarded and not opening up easily to people actually hurts them & makes them feel like I am not interested in being close (I am...I just take time). INFPs generally have a wall up, and behind the wall they are buried 6 ft underground and curled up in an iron clad shell. Good luck getting inside .

    And now in a total contradiction of what I just said, somehow criticism is this toxic smoke that filtrates into our shells and stings like a mother, and makes us come charging out with the ammunition strapped on (& the fact that I am comparing social interaction to battle says something right there).
    Our extreme sensitivity and ability to see an insult where there is none is very annoying to others. We make people walk on eggshells. Then, they still are often way off in sensing what offends us & what doesn't. It's comical when I think of how people try to avoid hurting me when what they need/want to say will not hurt me, and then they later inadvertently deeply hurt me with something they thought was harmless.

    INFPs who are more frustrated in life lose the floaty, peaceful Mother Theresa persona and start fitting the dark, angsty teenager persona (no matter how old). Think "Robert Smith". Dude comes off as whiny, melodramatic, and juvenile to many people.

    Lastly, we're also just weirdos who are square pegs in the round ESTJ holes.
    If everyone likes blue, I like green. If everyone goes right, I go left, etc. I'm always the voice of dissent, so I just stay quiet.

    I will note that besides the sensitivity thing, I've found less conflict with ENFJs in my weak areas.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  7. #77
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott N Denver View Post
    In fact, one of my work friends nicknamed me Rambo, because in his eyes it was the exact opposite of what I am!
    The irony is, just wait til one of these guys violates one of your dearly held values & the inner Rambo comes out (see post above....ammunition strapped on :tongue).
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  8. #78
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    Actually, I remembered after posting, I also told him not to call me Rambo, because whether he saw it or not or agreed with it or not I did feel like I had a bit of Rambo-type personality in me. So we mutually agreed that "Conan", as in Conan the Barbarian, was the better-opposite-of-me. Bubbles is his opposite, though I often will call him Jessica (Simpson), Britney (Spears), Paris (Hilton), or some other such popular anti-INTJ person.

  9. #79
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    OA, do you think that we INFP's are (mentally) tough? FWIW, I don't think that we aren't, but I'm so used to others not seeing it that I am surprised when someone else does see it. NF's are frequently perceptive into others, T's not so much IME. anyways

    Oh, I don't usually: "INFPs generally have a wall up, and behind the wall they are buried 6 ft underground and curled up in an iron clad shell. Good luck getting inside." , but the more time I spend in my workplaces the more I wish I did! Interestingly enough, others have commented how hard it is to get into my head and understand it. My response to them was "yeah, good luck with that one. Even if do you get one part of what's going on in my head your still going to have all the like 600 other ones that won't make any sense to you!" Do you think most INFP's have serious walls up? I've rarely felt that way about INFP's personally, but then again I usually don't have a threatening presence so maybe people just feel more comfortable around me?

    ENFJ's, sorry if were temporarily taking over your thread. We still love you, we promise!

  10. #80
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott N Denver View Post
    OA, do you think that we INFP's are (mentally) tough? FWIW, I don't think that we aren't, but I'm so used to others not seeing it that I am surprised when someone else does see it. NF's are frequently perceptive into others, T's not so much IME. anyways

    Oh, I don't usually: "INFPs generally have a wall up, and behind the wall they are buried 6 ft underground and curled up in an iron clad shell. Good luck getting inside." , but the more time I spend in my workplaces the more I wish I did! Interestingly enough, others have commented how hard it is to get into my head and understand it. My response to them was "yeah, good luck with that one. Even if do you get one part of what's going on in my head your still going to have all the like 600 other ones that won't make any sense to you!" Do you think most INFP's have serious walls up? I've rarely felt that way about INFP's personally, but then again I usually don't have a threatening presence so maybe people just feel more comfortable around me?

    ENFJ's, sorry if were temporarily taking over your thread. We still love you, we promise!
    I don't mean a wall as in something menacing, but we can be hard to get to know (as you said, "get in our head") and to get close to emotionally. I know this because people have commented on it to me also...they say I am "guarded". I might say I am "private".
    As I noted though, we are sensitive, which is what I think you're alluding to in your work place atmosphere. That can make us seem soft & vulnerable.

    I am not threatening either. I think I seem like a little doe-eyed deer in the headlights, and then I scurry away into the magical INFP la-la land forest and they have to scurry after me...and good luck catching me. Some people recognize I run away from fear, others are offended by it.

    I think we are strong in that it's hard to get past our shell. If someone cannot grasp you or get close to you emotionally, they cannot hurt you deeply. We may be sensitive and get offended easily, but we're also resilient with those shallow hurts (thanks to Ne & Te I think). If someone gets inside to the warm & gooey part, I think they can do a lot of lasting damage though. That's why many of us stay guarded.
    I also think we can seem tough when Fi's values are violated...as noted, we take a firm stand then that is impressive to others. Otherwise, yeah, we just go with the flow.

    Okay...back to ENFJ talk
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

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