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[NF] Why NFs pity themselves so much ?

Snow Turtle

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Ah. Well, not necessarily. I just don't think anyone who's not Ni dominant could understand. There's a high degree of disconnection in our default mindframe, and we have to learn how to feel connected. Reverting to disconnection is essentially a "fallback" state. Falling out of our learned behavior into a baseline mode.

It really reminds me of an argument I had with someone recently. I had to explain that I experience connection to people differently. For me, I have to focus energy on maintaining an emotional connection, and if I do nothing, it fades. Where as apparently, most people feel inherently connected, and actually have to expend effort to disconnect. When I described this, the person was really freaked out and said that was frightening to them. Which is why I try to hide how my mind and emotions work from most people.

You seem determined to dismiss all of this as inexperience, though, so I'm pretty sure you'll never believe that I really understand what depression/numbness/apathy means unless I have the same reaction to it that you would.

That's because I see this more as an appeal to the fact that I'm "Ni" therefore nobody can understand me. Essentially I see you doing what you were doing with INFPs earlier on, attempting to disassociate yourself from them because they were FPs. And now that I've come in with something opposing as an IFJ, you conclude that it's the SF.

Personally I don't think you understand my position very well, or perhaps you understand it the reasoning intellectually but don't realise just how much of an realistic effect it can have on someone (In the same manner you react negatively to someone who would self-harm.) I think the easiest way to clear up this issue is by getting someone (Preferably an INFJ) who has undergone a constant period of numbness, or endured depression otherwise it's all speculation of what it feels like.

In the same manner I can't conclude that I fully understand depression because I have never been in that state before. However I have experienced long term numbness and it's something that I'm extremely concerned about for a long period of time. Forgive me, but it really doesn't sound like you have experienced anything to that effect although I could be entirely wrong. You could clear that issue up for me.

One thing I'll agree with is that your emotions are yours, and there isn't any right or wrong emotion. But if you are going to attack me for not coping well, I sure as hope you understand my position first and the position of others, and that everybody is along the same line of thought. It's not good you thinking that these people are talking about stress, when in fact they are experiencing burnt out for example.

PS. Because I'm in a Ti war mode. Your experience of maintaining friendship doesn't sound that unusual from an introverted perspective. But I suppose you were just raising the point that we are in an arguing mode, and that I was definitely on different wave lenghts.
 

Snow Turtle

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Yes, I understand that. Although I am confused about why the raw emotions would flow through first when you stand back. I think you have the perspective you do because you can't "switch out" of defining your reality in emotional terms when this happens. I don't know... I just don't think we can communicate. We experience things too differently.

Raw emotions are the things first experienced. Then we process these emotions to generate feelings and moods.

Personally I don't like the projection on me that I'm an irrational creature as most of my friends would define me as an extremely collected individual.

But meh... You've already pulled out the "I'm N/You're S" trump card so I won't go any further. What can I do?
 

Athenian200

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In the same manner I can't conclude that I fully understand depression because I have never been in that state before. However I have experienced long term numbness and it's something that I'm extremely concerned about for a long period of time. Forgive me, but it really doesn't sound like you have experienced anything to that effect although I could be entirely wrong. You could clear that issue up for me.

Well, I'm not certain that I have. But I will say this... I've experienced several long stretches where I spent several months (once even a year) with no motivation to do anything except sit up, eat, and go online or watch TV. So that's what I did. Most people would consider that depression, but it's possible that I was just being extremely lazy and somehow enjoyed it. I know that during such times, I've generally felt rather empty, but could manage by keeping my mind occupied with ideas I found interesting.

I guess it all depends on how you define depression. Perhaps I've never emotionally invested myself in something enough to suffer from the loss of it to the point that my experience of disconnection would count as valid.

PS. Because I'm in a Ti war mode. Your experience of maintaining friendship doesn't sound that unusual from an introverted perspective. But I suppose you were just raising the point that we are in an arguing mode, and that I was definitely on different wave lenghts.

We might be on different wavelengths. I guess the point is, there's no way to tell if I understand what you're talking about or not. We're relying on words that might not have the same meaning to both of us.
Raw emotions are the things first experienced. Then we process these emotions to generate feelings and moods.

Personally I don't like the projection on me that I'm an irrational creature as most of my friends would define me as an extremely collected individual.

But meh... You've already pulled out the "I'm N/You're S" trump card so I won't go any further. What can I do?

I didn't say you were an irrational creature. I just meant to imply that raw emotions might not be the first thing everyone experiences. You seem quite rational, just different. If you experience raw emotions first, that's just how you are. It has it's advantages and disadvantages. There's not a "right" or "wrong" way to experience things.

I agree that you seem very collected, I've had a more interesting discussion with you so far than with many other people I've encountered.
 

Snow Turtle

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Well, I'm not certain that I have. But I will say this... I've experienced several long stretches where I spent several months (once even a year) with no motivation to do anything except sit up, eat, and go online or watch TV. So that's what I did. Most people would consider that depression, but it's possible that I was just being extremely lazy and somehow enjoyed it. I know that during such times, I've generally felt rather empty, but could manage by keeping my mind occupied with ideas I found interesting.

I guess it all depends on how you define depression. Perhaps I've never emotionally invested myself in something enough to suffer from the loss of it to the point that my experience of disconnection would count as valid.

Alright we're on the same wavelenght. This is something I've experienced but I don't consider it depression - it could be dysthymia. But what the hell I'm not a medical doctor, it could be depression. It's possible I've been experiencing depression for a long time but I wouldn't know. I personally don't believe I am.

Now I don't even remember what the original point behind all of this was. Why I believe that experiencing emotions is better than feeling empty?

We'll just agree to disagree. Looks like one of those situation. Because I don't think your experience of disconnection is invalid. But I'm not sure if you should attribute it to type, it's possible that it's more personal to yourself.

We might be on different wavelengths. I guess the point is, there's no way to tell if I understand what you're talking about or not. We're relying on words that might not have the same meaning to both of us.

That's definitely true...
I often get into arguements over semantics/definitions because they change the idea. And considering we're different individuals, we're never going to match up perfectly which is the reason I thought it was important to clarify the meaning first.

I didn't say you were an irrational creature. I just meant to imply that raw emotions might not be the first thing everyone experiences.

I meant raw emotions are the things that people will experience in the manner that a person touching a stove will immediately experience pain, even if it registers only a few seconds later. Personally I don't really experience strong emotions, which is also the reason why I can argue with people about issues that are usually quite contraversial such as incest or polymory (Hopefully I don't get killed for this). They don't produce strong reactions within me, apart from the fact that I feel it's my duty to defend people who get slated by bias. I keep bringing this up and I'm sure it's starting to sound rather egotistical but I rely on Ti to try and figure out what's the best way to approach things using universal systems.

Looking at it this way... I've got to admit that my detachment from emotions also has it's benefits. But I think I've lost out quite alot from not experiencing highs.
 

Athenian200

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Alright we're on the same wavelenght. This is something I've experienced but I don't consider it depression - it could be dysthymia. But what the hell I'm not a medical doctor, it could be depression. It's possible I've been experiencing depression for a long time but I wouldn't know. I personally don't believe I am.

Well, I guess I can see that. Depression might be something that only happens when you get really invested in something like a significant other or career, and they die or you lose your job or something. I can believe that.

Now I don't even remember what the original point behind all of this was. Why I believe that experiencing emotions is better than feeling empty?

We'll just agree to disagree. Looks like one of those situation. Because I don't think your experience of disconnection is invalid. But I'm not sure if you should attribute it to type, it's possible that it's more personal to yourself.

Yeah. I don't necessarily think feeling empty is good, but it's more... I don't know. It's like, when I get absorbed by it... I don't mind it. It doesn't feel "wrong." It almost feels comfortable, even though it's not. It's not bad enough that I'd wish for negative emotions in such a state, but I would still rather be able to feel.

It probably is very personal to myself. Maybe that's why I can't explain it.


That's definitely true...
I often get into arguements over semantics/definitions because they change the idea. And considering we're different individuals, we're never going to match up perfectly which is the reason I thought it was important to clarify the meaning first.

Yes, me too. That I can relate to.


I meant raw emotions are the things that people will experience in the manner that a person touching a stove will immediately experience pain, even if it registers only a few seconds later. Personally I don't really experience strong emotions, which is also the reason why I can argue with people about issues that are usually quite contraversial such as incest or polymory. They don't produce strong reactions within me, I rely on Ti to try and figure out what's the best way to approach things using universal systems.

Ah, I would call what you're talking about a sensation, not an emotion. And I relate to the rest of what you said as well.

It looks like we're not that different after all, just a little mixed up about where the other was coming from.

Looking at it this way... I've got to admit that my detachment from emotions also has it's benefits. But I think I've lost out quite alot from not experiencing highs.

That seems very close to what I was trying to say in many ways.
 

Snow Turtle

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Yeah. I don't necessarily think feeling empty is good, but it's more... I don't know. It's like, when I get absorbed by it... I don't mind it. It doesn't feel "wrong." It almost feels comfortable, even though it's not. It's not bad enough that I'd wish for negative emotions in such a state, but I would still rather be able to feel.

It probably is very personal to myself. Maybe that's why I can't explain it.

I'm sort of in the state right now, posting on this forum. It does feel comfortable but at the same time I know in the back of my head, that for me, this is all just a distraction and I am literally damaging myself by being in this state.

It does sound like a personal thing.

It looks like we're not that different after all, just a little mixed up about where the other was coming from.

:thumbup: Good stuff.
 

TaylorS

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In some situations, this is indeed a flaw in our psychology that we can't do much besides work around. I admit that.

However, in some situations... it's actually an emotion that's causing it to feel like there's a problem with our situation rather than the other way around. In this situation, working through the emotion resolves everything, and there's no need to do anything else.

In fact, an NT, whose first impulse would be to change something objective in response to a sense that something is wrong, might end up unconsciously running away from resolving the real emotional issue that's actually causing the pain, and just drowning it out or masking it temporarily.

So depending on whether the true source of the discomfort is emotional/psychological or objective/physical in nature, the NF or NT response is more effective.

Does that make sense?
I've read that Ts can get themselves into trouble when they try to solve a friend's problem by trying to solve the issue with total objectivity and thus run roughshod over the friend's feelings without meaning too. An example I have ran into was a ISTP friend trying to console another friend of ours, an ESFP, who had been raped that she just needed to "quit thinking about it".
:doh:
 

Athenian200

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I've read that Ts can get themselves into trouble when they try to solve a friend's problem by trying to solve the issue with total objectivity and thus run roughshod over the friend's feelings without meaning too. An example I have ran into was a ISTP friend trying to console another friend of ours, an ESFP, who had been raped that she just needed to "quit thinking about it".
:doh:

That's pretty horrible. I can't believe someone would say that. Are you sure he was just a T, and not truly just emotionally impaired to the point of completely lacking empathy?

I mean, that's what you tell someone when they have a headache and they're whining about not having Aspirin. Not when... something like that happens. When I hear about people saying stuff like that, that pretty much removes all my doubt about being an F. :shock:
 

TaylorS

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This what I am trying to say since I came here. But people don't believe me.


My logic goes like this:

If a problem can be sovled it will be solved and if it can't be solved then there is no point in worring and getting depressed about it.

Also I am not too emotional person by default so by I have a natural tendency to avoid depression.
While everybody are prepared to place bets that I am quite depressed.


The only "flaw" of this is that you don't get too big bonuses from good emotions.
That may be superficially correct but it's bad advice in many situations. To again use the example of my ESFP friend who was raped, obsessive worrying caused by a traumatic event is not something a person can just suddenly choose to quit worrying about, telling people with PTSD to simply "quit worrying about it" is belittling and risks traumatizing them more.
 

Lady_X

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i know an istj that sucks at empathy...but i don't think all t's are that way....are they??
 

TaylorS

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That's pretty horrible. I can't believe someone would say that. Are you sure he was just a T, and not truly just emotionally impaired to the point of completely lacking empathy?

I mean, that's what you tell someone when they have a headache and they're whining about not having Aspirin. Not when... something like that happens. When I hear about people saying stuff like that, that pretty much removes all my doubt about being an F. :shock:
No, I'm sure he is a T (dominant Ti to be precise), he wasn't trying to be insensitive, he's just a bit naive and was simply trying to help but doesn't really understand PTSD. He (like myself) has Asperger's and a Ti-dominant Aspie trying to give advice in such situations is a recipe for a train-wreck.
 

TaylorS

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Depression can be hard for most people to understand considering it's so against fundamental human nature, even for those who consider themselves caring individuals. It's the reason that depressed people are often shouted at to "Man up/Stop it" by unsympathetic people or "Cheer up" by people that are sympathetic but don't really understand that it's much more difficult to do so. Eventually these people get labelled as attention seeking emos or lazy people but considering the amount of people that suffer from the condition, yeah...

Think of phobias. Why are people afraid of these thing? How exactly do you propose to fix a phobia? The problem is entirely emotional and psychological. In the same regard I don't believe there are people who are 100% efficient and do not come across some problems. When these problems can't be dealt with, it becomes a case of trying to fix it, but not being able to do this. At first it'll be lookedd kindly upon but after a while it'll be deemed as wallowing when people still can't seem to break out of it.
I think it's less human nature and more an aspect of Western culture and it's dogmatic belief in the notion of "Free Will". A good example of this moronic faith in positive thinking is that BS New Age snake oil called "The Secret", it's not only crazy nonsense, it's DANGEROUS nonsense.
 

sculpting

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I've read that Ts can get themselves into trouble when they try to solve a friend's problem by trying to solve the issue with total objectivity and thus run roughshod over the friend's feelings without meaning too. An example I have ran into was a ISTP friend trying to console another friend of ours, an ESFP, who had been raped that she just needed to "quit thinking about it".
:doh:

i know an istj that sucks at empathy...but i don't think all t's are that way....are they??

Maybe for an ISTP in this situation this is the correct answer. For him that is how he would get past a tough emotionally charged issue. However the correct answer for him-a strong thinker- was totally the wrong answer for her-a strong feeler. Different solutions for different types to the same problem. This even sounds true for Fe vs Fi.

Originally Posted by Kai
Depression can be hard for most people to understand considering it's so against fundamental human nature, even for those who consider themselves caring individuals. It's the reason that depressed people are often shouted at to "Man up/Stop it" by unsympathetic people or "Cheer up" by people that are sympathetic but don't really understand that it's much more difficult to do so. Eventually these people get labelled as attention seeking emos or lazy people but considering the amount of people that suffer from the condition, yeah...


Sorry Kai, I couldnt find the orginal post but wanted to comment on this. I think depression is actually a normal biological response in certain circumstances. You can see this if you spend time around animals even. Under situations of extreme stress, injury, or death of another the animals can be seen to be subdued and even depressed. Under extreme circumstances animals will often wonder off, abandon the group and die alone, rather than put the group at risk due to the problem with the individual animal. Since we share 90% of our genome and biology with most mammals, i think much of the underlying physiology may be the same perhaps?

A long time back I read a paper where they discussed how depression in humans might be an evolved response-I am hurt/sick/in need of assistance, observe these signs of pain, both emotional and/or physical, please help. As we are a social species some of us-especially the Fis, will be prone to helping, which then leads to social obligatory ties across the pack/herd. I scratch your back, you scratch mine. In clinical, long term depression that response ballons out of control, perhaps? Or perhaps that would be the normal progression for that individual to leave the pack, due to its injury/problem??? That sounds really awful, but biology is a bitch.
 

Snow Turtle

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Originally Posted by Kai
Depression can be hard for most people to understand considering it's so against fundamental human nature, even for those who consider themselves caring individuals. It's the reason that depressed people are often shouted at to "Man up/Stop it" by unsympathetic people or "Cheer up" by people that are sympathetic but don't really understand that it's much more difficult to do so. Eventually these people get labelled as attention seeking emos or lazy people but considering the amount of people that suffer from the condition, yeah...

Sorry Kai, I couldnt find the orginal post but wanted to comment on this. I think depression is actually a normal biological response in certain circumstances. You can see this if you spend time around animals even. Under situations of extreme stress, injury, or death of another the animals can be seen to be subdued and even depressed. Under extreme circumstances animals will often wonder off, abandon the group and die alone, rather than put the group at risk due to the problem with the individual animal. Since we share 90% of our genome and biology with most mammals, i think much of the underlying physiology may be the same perhaps?

A long time back I read a paper where they discussed how depression in humans might be an evolved response-I am hurt/sick/in need of assistance, observe these signs of pain, both emotional and/or physical, please help. As we are a social species some of us-especially the Fis, will be prone to helping, which then leads to social obligatory ties across the pack/herd. I scratch your back, you scratch mine. In clinical, long term depression that response ballons out of control, perhaps? Or perhaps that would be the normal progression for that individual to leave the pack, due to its injury/problem??? That sounds really awful, but biology is a bitch.

Hm. That's quite interesting. It certainly gives me a new tool to argue the existance of depression. Friends constantly claim that depression and some of the effects of it, more specifically the exhibiting suicidal thoughts and desire for death goes against the 'natural' human desire to want to live and pro-create. Therefore it doesn't exist! Unfortunately I couldn't beat their logic since I fail at arguements in real life. >__<

It sounds second one like a reasonable theory. There's abit of problem...
1. The individual desires to keep their depression a secret.
2. The individual is usually no longer concerned about their surroundings and peers, the focus is on themselves and their pain.

Granted it's possible that we're just not conscious that we're doing this. It's hard to believe that humans can still be affected by this sort of thing, but eh... I don't really know enough about evolutionary biology and biological psychology to comment. So I'll just go ahead with what's been brought up. :D

Maybe for an ISTP in this situation this is the correct answer. For him that is how he would get past a tough emotionally charged issue. However the correct answer for him-a strong thinker- was totally the wrong answer for her-a strong feeler. Different solutions for different types to the same problem. This even sounds true for Fe vs Fi.

It seems a little odd that the ISTP assumes that he'll be able to stay so emotionally calm and stable in such scenarios without having experienced it. Much more better to take the safer route that, especially if it's obvious that the person is still suffering. It's abit silly to say: Just forget about it. Seems like one of those statements that generate the response: "Well... Don't you think I would have already taken the most obvious solution if I could?"

He (like myself) has Asperger's and a Ti-dominant Aspie trying to give advice in such situations is a recipe for a train-wreck.

Ah. Didn't read that part...
 

TaylorS

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Maybe for an ISTP in this situation this is the correct answer. For him that is how he would get past a tough emotionally charged issue. However the correct answer for him-a strong thinker- was totally the wrong answer for her-a strong feeler. Different solutions for different types to the same problem. This even sounds true for Fe vs Fi.
This is a very good point. People always have a tendency of projecting their own way of thinking into the mind of other people.
 

Virtual ghost

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i know an istj that sucks at empathy...but i don't think all t's are that way....are they??

I've read that Ts can get themselves into trouble when they try to solve a friend's problem by trying to solve the issue with total objectivity and thus run roughshod over the friend's feelings without meaning too. An example I have ran into was a ISTP friend trying to console another friend of ours, an ESFP, who had been raped that she just needed to "quit thinking about it".
:doh:

To be completly honest I can see myself saying something like this.
I was thinking about opening a thread about this but I have concluded that this would come as controversy for the sake of controversy.
So I never opened this thread.


As for unempathic thinkers. Yes we can be quite unempathic. Especially if that T is strong. Strong Ts most of the time don't feel empathy or sympathy towards people. But we don't want anyone hurt either.


But sometimes we just have to shock people for the sake of doing it.
Here is something I did a few days ago.

Sitatuion: Bank robber fires 7 shots into the cop but the doctors managed to save him somehow. But most organs and limbs have suffered heavy injuries.



EF female: This is so terribe and so wrong. The worst thing is that he will never be healthy and complete again. Imagine how will this effect his entire family for the rest of his life and it will always remember them on this day.
Maybe it would have been batter that he died. I mean he is too young for this. (falls into a depression)


Me: I truly don't see the problem. Doctors managed to save him and he lives for now. If it turns out that he can't live like this he can always commit suicide. In the case that it gets that bad.
Problem solved. :coffee:

I have said this without any excitment in voice and I did not look at her.
So it sounded even more blunt then it was.
 

sculpting

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Hm. That's quite interesting. It certainly gives me a new tool to argue the existance of depression. Friends constantly claim that depression and some of the effects of it, more specifically the exhibiting suicidal thoughts and desire for death goes against the 'natural' human desire to want to live and pro-create. Therefore it doesn't exist! Unfortunately I couldn't beat their logic since I fail at arguements in real life. >__<

It sounds second one like a reasonable theory. There's abit of problem...
1. The individual desires to keep their depression a secret.
2. The individual is usually no longer concerned about their surroundings and peers, the focus is on themselves and their pain.

Granted it's possible that we're just not conscious that we're doing this. It's hard to believe that humans can still be affected by this sort of thing, but eh... I don't really know enough about evolutionary biology and biological psychology to comment. So I'll just go ahead with what's been brought up. :D

Maybe this is where we get really screwed as society teaches us to hide when it should instead be used as a signal that we are having issues.

I watched a talk from a harvard prof from the WHO a couple of years back whcih showed that 30% of folks-worldwide- suffer from a moderate to major mental illness during our lives. Yet in most every society around the world it is stigmatized to such as extent that folks dont aslways seek help.

its close to home for me-the whole topic-as while I have never suffered from chronic longterm depression, I had a coworker commit suicide this last year. We are a very small company, yet no one knew what was going on, he hid it so well. We were all very shaken up, and left wondering how to help and what we could have done differently to have helped him.

anyways, just my two cents :)
 

TaylorS

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In my case as an INFJ I have less of an issue with self-pity and far more issues with beating myself up with self-criticism, especially when my Ni and Fe give conflicting motivations.

Self-pity would seem more what a Fi-dominant person with painful memories would suffer from.
 

Snow Turtle

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To be completly honest I can see myself saying something like this.
I was thinking about opening a thread about this but I have concluded that this would come as controversy for the sake of controversy.
So I never opened this thread.

As for unempathic thinkers. Yes we can be quite unempathic. Especially if that T is strong. Strong Ts most of the time don't feel empathy or sympathy towards people. But we don't want anyone hurt either.

It's hard for me to believe this. The reason I say this because it'd just make total sense to me that if somebody is aware of another person, they'd understand that they think differently and therefore can easily just imagine how the other person would be. (It doesn't even have to be on an emotional level, it can be on an intellectual level. It's just basically understanding another persons perspective.)

While it doesn't make total sense to you. It's not like you don't grasp that there are feelers in the world, and that they operate on a different system. You don't exactly claim that your thinking is the only method, therefore it seems unlikely that you will be purely unempathetic. That seems more of someone that doesn't have understanding or is ignorant.

But sometimes we just have to shock people for the sake of doing it.
Here is something I did a few days ago.

Sitatuion: Bank robber fires 7 shots into the cop but the doctors managed to save him somehow. But most organs and limbs have suffered heavy injuries.



EF female: This is so terribe and so wrong. The worst thing is that he will never be healthy and complete again. Imagine how will this effect his entire family for the rest of his life and it will always remember them on this day.
Maybe it would have been batter that he died. I mean he is too young for this. (falls into a depression)


Me: I truly don't see the problem. Doctors managed to save him and he lives for now. If it turns out that he can't live like this he can always commit suicide. In the case that it gets that bad.
Problem solved. :coffee:

I have said this without any excitment in voice and I did not look at her.
So it sounded even more blunt then it was.

Then you confuse me as to why you do this >_<!

Was that just to shock the person? Are you seriously telling me that you can't understand the emotional implications that a person may have, even if you don't experience it yourself? How the past can't affects the present and the future? [This is retarded: I'm going against my earlier arguement that non-depressed people aren't really going to understand what it means to be depressed. But even then one can have a rough idea.]

I'm more likely to believe that you simply decided to reject consideration of the emotional aspect of the problem.
 
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