[NF] Why NFs pity themselves so much ?

[Thalassa]

I think that what is being described here is possibly clinical depression or even borderline personality disorder. Numbness doesn't necessarily have a clarity connotation for some people either - numbness can be a sign of depression in some people, deep black depression, and feeling anything is a step up from that level of depression.

I like having my feelings. I wouldn't want them to go, but of course I don't want them to control me either. I understand what you're saying about balance of course, but I guess I have more sympathy/empathy for those kinds of states that scare or bother you.

I know someone who is most likely an ISFP and he has the same fixation on wanting to keep his feelings, and art is a regular source of him evoking his inner emotions, even painful ones. Could it just be the FP?

 

[Athenian200]

I don't understand it either. Just seems like an mental illness that needs treatment.

I'm glad to hear you say that. I guess it's not really an FP thing after all, so much as something people might do if they can't find a way to deal with their emotions in a more verbal or constructive fashion.

 

[Athenian200]

I think that what is being described here is possibly clinical depression or even borderline personality disorder. Numbness doesn't necessarily have a clarity connotation for some people either - numbness can be a sign of depression in some people, deep black depression, and feeling anything is a step up from that level of depression.

Well, I understand it being a sign of depression. I've even felt that when depressed before. It's just that I'd rather stay numb from the depression than hurt. I suppose all it really means is that my fear of pain is significantly stronger than my desire to feel anything. Come to think of it, that might bring it's own set of problems.

I like having my feelings. I wouldn't want them to go, but of course I don't want them to control me either. I understand what you're saying about balance of course, but I guess I have more sympathy/empathy for those kinds of states that scare or bother you.

Yeah. They do scare and bother me. Mostly because I can't put myself in their shoes, and thus can't understand them. I have to admit that I'm an easily scared and disgusted person who shies away from anything that sets off a red flag in my mind.

I know someone who is most likely an ISFP and he has the same fixation on wanting to keep his feelings, and art is a regular source of him evoking his inner emotions, even painful ones. Could it just be the FP?

Well... now I'm getting confused about whether it's an FP thing or not. Some of you think it is, some think it isn't... who knows?

 

[Virtual ghost]

I don't know who posted this originally...but you seem to assume that you're special in having goals and working towards them. NFP have goals too. All humans can have goal they work towards and if your Ni is going on and on without any editing from the other functions, that's not a healthy situation. Not any more than someone running on Fi all the time without any input from Ne. The primary and secondary work together or the person goes unbalanced. This is how I understand it.

I have posted that. I know that everyone has goals.
But what I wanted to show is that I don't have to use emotions in making decisions in many cases. Since get all the data/plans just by doing "nothing".

What do you think about those kinds of threads AO? Do you think they are indulgent? They are often full of deprecating and unhelpful replies... I can't see how that is preferable to the way NFs might work out their issues on the boards.

About INTP ?

I don't have problem with this kind of behavior. No matter who bahaves this way. I have problem in understanding some parts of F function.
Whether it is inside of F or a T person. It is not unusual for me to have T vs F conflict with another T.


I have opened this thread because it looks to me that NFs are the most likely group to behave this way. I never claimed that this is black and white topic.

Once trapped in an Ne-Fi rut it can be circular and can just dive deeper and deeper and sort of magnify itself. I keep looking outwards for affirmation to solve the problem???? This could just be me though. I have to make a decided choice to stop the cyclical thinking and look inside for a sense of stability??? I have to stop Fi from amplifying itself???

I have seen this in real life.



As for cultural differences: I am from Eastern Europe.
Just saying.

 

[tibby]

Self pity? It sucks and deceives. I stopped because it got so fucking boring and being emo just gets old when you have many other perspectives. Waste of space, time and me. An easy way out from necessary pain. To become a victim, rather than constructive in realising what could be done instead and living lifes potentials.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Here something about what I am talking about.


That makes me sad

Was that a figure of speach or was there something deeper in the first sentence ?

I am good in predicting what an F will do.
But what I fail to understand is the inner world and things that are usually not said.



Like the statement " There is no plan, she just wants to see you do something you enjoy and like".

I roll eyes on that one on regular basis. Which is because I don't understand this approach. I can understand the context and that people do this when they love someone and that they do it because they love them.
But the emotinal part of the story is out of my reach.

 

[heart]

^ I don't think any of us can make you understand. We could explain all day but not give you an answer that satisfies you because I think you want a logical answer and you want to be able to apply a logical construct to feeling and it can't really be done.

Plus, from the way you word things, you use inflamatory words and it makes it seem like you already have a set, negative idea in your mind. It is very hard for people who hold set, negaitive bias to hear and understand what others are trying to say that counters those ideas.

 

[Snow Turtle]

Well, sometimes I do feel that. There might even be some of that going on in my life now, actually. But mostly I just meant that I wouldn't deliberately choose pain over numbness. I wouldn't necessarily want to get rid of my emotions completely. I just wouldn't seek to rid myself of the numbness that sometimes comes over me when I get overwhelmed emotionally. I consider it something of a good thing that gives me a break and sense of clarity when I need it most, and I don't wish to understand the people who would force themselves out of it with self-inflicted pain.

I'm not sure how often you experience these sort of feelings I'd argue that numbness is much much more worse than pain. It's the state of apathy, when somebody has given up completely that they don't even care about their pain anymore. It's when life has lost it's will. Depressed people are often numb and dead inside. So I'm not entirely sure how people can argue that numbness is a better emotional state.

Think of the silent treatment or disappointment, it is often more effective than anger for exactly this reason. To feel pain or anger, while not the greatest of emotions is to at least still feel like you are yourself, that you are alive.

Edit: This is why I should read threads fully before posting >_<!

 

[violaine]

About INTP ?

I don't have problem with this kind of behavior. No matter who bahaves this way. I have problem in understanding some parts of F function.
Whether it is inside of F or a T person. It is not unusual for me to have T vs F conflict with another T.


I have opened this thread because it looks to me that NFs are the most likely group to behave this way. I never claimed that this is black and white topic.

Actually, you did say in the OP that you thought NT discussion of such topics would be more constructive. It's patently wrong. It's a bias you have that I wished to highlight to you.

Having said that, I have been wondering if the problem is a difficulty you have with "theory of mind". That is, being able to understand and attribute motives, mental states, knowledge, beliefs of/to others. Without that ability, it is difficult to be able to understand the internal world of others if it differs from your own perspective.

 

[Jonathanthegreat]

hm I can agree to what the INTJ was saying. That NF's can appear to pity themselves. I think this pertains more to the NFP's than the NFJ's. Granted I did post a thread asking about the compatibility of me and an ESTP, however, that was to receive an outside opinion. I feel the NFP's feel victims to certain circumstances, even their emotions. I believe it has to do with the P mentality. Not all P's but most of the one's I know feel as if life happens to them. An example would be they feel like they are in a boat floating down a stream with no paddles, steering column, etc to control where they go. The J's seem to like closure (obviously) and seem to believe more that they are in control of their destiny. J's, myself included, believe that if they want something, they can have it, this is a very powerful motivating tool. At times I do feel as a "victim" to my circumstances however in all reality we have a free will. This can be compared to Heidegger's (sp?) "authentic" and "inauthentic" persons. interesting stuff. But yea above all I can see how NF's can come off like they are gloomy, sad, etc, but I think it's because we can pick up on peoples emotions around us better than all types therefore if you're surrounded by sad individuals it will have an affect on you.

 

[Athenian200]

Here something about what I am talking about.


That makes me sad

Was that a figure of speach or was there something deeper in the first sentence ?

It was a figure of speech. It basically means, "I have become aware from your post that you are experiencing sadness, and I wish to express that I empathize with you."

Like the statement " There is no plan, she just wants to see you do something you enjoy and like".

I roll eyes on that one on regular basis. Which is because I don't understand this approach. I can understand the context and that people do this when they love someone and that they do it because they love them.

That statement. The hidden meaning is, if a person loves you, they should wish to see you do something you enjoy and like (ahead of accomplishing something they think you should) since that will result in your happiness. Essentially, it's defining love as valuing the happiness of another person, and giving you a way to figure out whether they feel love for you or not.

Does that make sense?

 

[Athenian200]

I'm not sure how often you experience these sort of feelings I'd argue that numbness is much much more worse than pain. It's the state of apathy, when somebody has given up completely that they don't even care about their pain anymore. It's when life has lost it's will. Depressed people are often numb and dead inside. So I'm not entirely sure how people can argue that numbness is a better emotional state.

Think of the silent treatment or disappointment, it is often more effective than anger for exactly this reason. To feel pain or anger, while not the greatest of emotions is to at least still feel like you are yourself, that you are alive.

I guess the thing is, pain and other negative emotions don't make me feel more myself than numbness. If anything, they make me feel less like myself. And they tend to put me at risk of hurting other people far more often than numbness or apathy. My negative emotions (like pain and anger) generally make me want to lash out and hurt others rather than turn inwards when I'm at that level. In other words, that kind of stress makes me become a sadist rather than a masochist, if I feel anything at all. Which is probably why I'd rather stay numb and dead until I'm out of it.

I don't know... I think we're just very different kinds of people and lack the capacity to understand each other. Which is why we don't get it. Maybe your core isn't the same as my core. What you perceive as "self" isn't the same thing I do.

 

[Snow Turtle]

I guess the thing is, pain and other negative emotions don't make me feel more myself than numbness. If anything, they make me feel less like myself. And they tend to put me at risk of hurting other people far more often than numbness or apathy. My negative emotions (like pain and anger) generally make me want to lash out and hurt others rather than turn inwards when I'm at that level. In other words, that kind of stress makes me become a sadist rather than a masochist, if I feel anything at all. Which is probably why I'd rather stay numb and dead until I'm out of it.

I don't know... I think we're just very different kinds of people and lack the capacity to understand each other. Which is why we don't get it. Maybe your core isn't the same as my core. What you perceive as "self" isn't the same thing I do.

Hmm. Guess it depends on the sort of pain that we're describing. My desired emotional level works sort of like this (It's rather Fe really...)

Happiness
Sadness (Although there are times where I just feel like becoming numb, but really that's not true.)
Numbness
Anger (This one I avoid the most for similar reasons.)

I've had occasions where I've wanted to cry but couldn't. It's during these occasions where I think "There's a problem. I'm sad but I'm not as upset as I should be." it's during these times when I know that I have essentially closed myself off to emotions, even though I'm an FJ. By closing myself off to emotions, I've disconnected from myself and others.

Negative emotions (except anger) definitely seem better than not feeeeeeeeeeeling.
_________________________________
Edit: I don't know where the extreme sadness would fit on that list, but the sadness I'm usually referring to is similar to melancholy. Which can also appear to be like wallowing.

Edit2: I'm under developed in Fe. Therefore I resort to Ti more often than not, I suspect it's also the reason that I'm a rather stotic person despite having the underlayer of caring Fe. This is reflected when I ask friends which I value more in myself - empathy/logical/calmness and some of them giving the latter two.

 

[Athenian200]

I've had occasions where I've wanted to cry but couldn't. It's during these occasions where I think "There's a problem. I'm sad but I'm not as upset as I should be." it's during these times when I know that I have essentially closed myself off to emotions, even though I'm an FJ. By closing myself off to emotions, I've disconnected from myself and others.

Negative emotions (except anger) definitely seem better than not feeeeeeeeeeeling.

Right. Why is it unacceptable to stay in a state where you've disconnected from yourself and others? I don't really want to stay connected when it brings me something negative. Sometimes it's a relief not to have to deal with being upset right away, because it gives you time to think lucidly about how best to deal with your situation before being overwhelmed.

Oh, well. I guess some people just can't cope with that disconnected state as well as others. INJs are only 3% of the population... maybe it's got something to do with how Ni works.

 

[Snow Turtle]

Right. Why is it unacceptable to stay in a state where you've disconnected from yourself and others? I don't really want to stay connected when it brings me something negative. Sometimes it's a relief not to have to deal with being upset right away, because it gives you time to think lucidly about how best to deal with your situation before being overwhelmed.

Oh, well. I guess some people just can't cope with that disconnected state as well as others.

I don't know whether you have experienced the disconnection that I'm talking about. But by disconnecting from others on a negative issue, I relate to antisocial words about by being cut off with emotions. By giving up the negative emotions I also give up the positive emotions, and many feelers use their feelings as navigation systems in life. It's not a simple case of reconnecting when the positive emotions are there to be experienced, and disconnecting from the bad at will.

Are you arguing that this is a better emotional state to be in? To numb all emotions in order to avoid just the negative ones?
Unlike AO who seems to have no problems with being disconnected from emotions long term. This is a problem for me. It's also the reason that other people often conclude that AO is depressed or numbed out, because this happens to be a common feature of depressed people.

For the record: I've never identified myself as being depressed. But it's not the same as being blue for a short period of time.

 

[Virtual ghost]

^ I don't think any of us can make you understand. We could explain all day but not give you an answer that satisfies you because I think you want a logical answer and you want to be able to apply a logical construct to feeling and it can't really be done.

Plus, from the way you word things, you use inflamatory words and it makes it seem like you already have a set, negative idea in your mind. It is very hard for people who hold set, negaitive bias to hear and understand what others are trying to say that counters those ideas.

I know you can't. Long ago I have made peace with the fact that I will never understand emotions of others completely. (if that is even possible)
Which is because I don't relate to many traits that are typical for F.
Understanding a F from the outside actually not a problem for me. It is just that it is likely that I will disagree. But understanding them for within is another story.

Does this work the other way around as well ?


You are right I have a set but this is because I function that way.
But I can change my opinion if I find a better one.

Actually, you did say in the OP that you thought NT discussion of such topics would be more constructive. It's patently wrong. It's a bias you have that I wished to highlight to you.

Having said that, I have been wondering if the problem is a difficulty you have with "theory of mind". That is, being able to understand and attribute motives, mental states, knowledge, beliefs of/to others. Without that ability, it is difficult to be able to understand the internal world of others if it differs from your own perspective.

Well, the OP was written as a provocation.

I think that INTPs are more likely to preserve their emotional integrity then INFPs. But when INTPs or other NTs go wrong then it is really a mess.



I think you are overlooking one fact in my post. Which is that "constructive" is very subjective term. I made that statement because there is less
of "oh my god" and "that is terrible" in posts on NT forum.
My postion was/is entirely subjective/relative.


Thanks for the link.
I will go through that text when I will have the time.

It was a figure of speech. It basically means, "I have become aware from your post that you are experiencing sadness, and I wish to express that I empathize with you."



That statement. The hidden meaning is, if a person loves you, they should wish to see you do something you enjoy and like (ahead of accomplishing something they think you should) since that will result in your happiness. Essentially, it's defining love as valuing the happiness of another person, and giving you a way to figure out whether they feel love for you or not.

Does that make sense?

1.Ok.

2.Yes it does and I am aware of the mechanism behind it. But this approach towards people always suprises me over and over agian.

Negative emotions (except anger) definitely seem better than not feeeeeeeeeeeling.

Would you care to explain this claim ?

 

[Synarch]

Actually, you did say in the OP that you thought NT discussion of such topics would be more constructive. It's patently wrong. It's a bias you have that I wished to highlight to you.

Having said that, I have been wondering if the problem is a difficulty you have with "theory of mind". That is, being able to understand and attribute motives, mental states, knowledge, beliefs of/to others. Without that ability, it is difficult to be able to understand the internal world of others if it differs from your own perspective.

Haha.

 

[Snow Turtle]

Negative emotions (except anger) definitely seem better than not feeeeeeeeeeeling.

Would you care to explain this claim ?

You made a thread a while back.
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-idyllic/15777-why-emotions-so-important-you.html

Emotions are my navigation tool. Emotions are what fuel motivation. Apathy can and will eventually lead to nihilism. I can see that might not be the case for yourself. You've already mentioned that your motivations seem to come from nowhere, but I'd argue that is your conscious understanding of yourself.

Why is Nihilism bad?
You'll probably find your answer from asking why the common stereotype for NFs are constantly search for meaning and purpose or generating these things within their own lives.

Oh, well. I guess some people just can't cope with that disconnected state as well as others. INJs are only 3% of the population... maybe it's got something to do with how Ni works.

That's not really a valid arguement.... =.=
You can't just claim that "Oh, I'm different therefore it doesn't apply to my type" almost as if depression/numbness (desire for emotions) doesn't ever occur to INJs. - I'm certain that it can happen to anybody.

It's not a matter of coping with disconnected states. It's a matter of being in a disconnected state permenantly, or for so long that it's difficult to get back out of it. This isn't the same as standing back and letting the raw emotions flow through first and processing things.

 

[Athenian200]

Are you arguing that this is a better emotional state to be in? To numb all emotions in order to avoid just the negative ones?
Unlike AO who seems to have no problems with being disconnected from emotions long term. This is a problem for me. It's also the reason that other people often conclude that AO is depressed or numbed out, because this happens to be a common feature of depressed people.

For the record: I've never identified myself as being depressed. But it's not the same as being blue for a short period of time.

Ah. Well, not necessarily. I just don't think anyone who's not Ni dominant could understand. There's a high degree of disconnection in our default mindframe, and we have to learn how to feel connected. Reverting to disconnection is essentially a "fallback" state. Falling out of our learned behavior into a baseline mode.

It really reminds me of an argument I had with someone recently. I had to explain that I experience connection to people differently. For me, I have to focus energy on maintaining an emotional connection, and if I do nothing, it fades. Where as apparently, most people feel inherently connected, and actually have to expend effort to disconnect. When I described this, the person was really freaked out and said that was frightening to them. Which is why I try to hide how my mind and emotions work from most people.

You seem determined to dismiss all of this as inexperience, though, so I'm pretty sure you'll never believe that I really understand what depression/numbness/apathy means unless I have the same reaction to it that you would.

It's not a matter of coping with disconnected states. It's a matter of being in a disconnected state permenantly, or for so long that it's difficult to get back out of it. This isn't the same as standing back and letting the raw emotions flow through first and processing things.

Yes, I understand that. Although I am confused about why the raw emotions would flow through first when you stand back. I think you have the perspective you do because you can't "switch out" of defining your reality in emotional terms when this happens. I don't know... I just don't think we can communicate. We experience things too differently.

 

[Litvyak]

I know you can't. Long ago I have made peace with the fact that I will never understand emotions of others completely. (if that is even possible)

... that concludes the topic, right?