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  1. #231
    Aspie Idealist TaylorS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    That's pretty horrible. I can't believe someone would say that. Are you sure he was just a T, and not truly just emotionally impaired to the point of completely lacking empathy?

    I mean, that's what you tell someone when they have a headache and they're whining about not having Aspirin. Not when... something like that happens. When I hear about people saying stuff like that, that pretty much removes all my doubt about being an F.
    No, I'm sure he is a T (dominant Ti to be precise), he wasn't trying to be insensitive, he's just a bit naive and was simply trying to help but doesn't really understand PTSD. He (like myself) has Asperger's and a Ti-dominant Aspie trying to give advice in such situations is a recipe for a train-wreck.
    Autistic INFP


  2. #232
    Aspie Idealist TaylorS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Depression can be hard for most people to understand considering it's so against fundamental human nature, even for those who consider themselves caring individuals. It's the reason that depressed people are often shouted at to "Man up/Stop it" by unsympathetic people or "Cheer up" by people that are sympathetic but don't really understand that it's much more difficult to do so. Eventually these people get labelled as attention seeking emos or lazy people but considering the amount of people that suffer from the condition, yeah...

    Think of phobias. Why are people afraid of these thing? How exactly do you propose to fix a phobia? The problem is entirely emotional and psychological. In the same regard I don't believe there are people who are 100% efficient and do not come across some problems. When these problems can't be dealt with, it becomes a case of trying to fix it, but not being able to do this. At first it'll be lookedd kindly upon but after a while it'll be deemed as wallowing when people still can't seem to break out of it.
    I think it's less human nature and more an aspect of Western culture and it's dogmatic belief in the notion of "Free Will". A good example of this moronic faith in positive thinking is that BS New Age snake oil called "The Secret", it's not only crazy nonsense, it's DANGEROUS nonsense.
    Autistic INFP


  3. #233
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaylorS View Post
    I've read that Ts can get themselves into trouble when they try to solve a friend's problem by trying to solve the issue with total objectivity and thus run roughshod over the friend's feelings without meaning too. An example I have ran into was a ISTP friend trying to console another friend of ours, an ESFP, who had been raped that she just needed to "quit thinking about it".
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    i know an istj that sucks at empathy...but i don't think all t's are that way....are they??
    Maybe for an ISTP in this situation this is the correct answer. For him that is how he would get past a tough emotionally charged issue. However the correct answer for him-a strong thinker- was totally the wrong answer for her-a strong feeler. Different solutions for different types to the same problem. This even sounds true for Fe vs Fi.

    Originally Posted by Kai
    Depression can be hard for most people to understand considering it's so against fundamental human nature, even for those who consider themselves caring individuals. It's the reason that depressed people are often shouted at to "Man up/Stop it" by unsympathetic people or "Cheer up" by people that are sympathetic but don't really understand that it's much more difficult to do so. Eventually these people get labelled as attention seeking emos or lazy people but considering the amount of people that suffer from the condition, yeah...


    Sorry Kai, I couldnt find the orginal post but wanted to comment on this. I think depression is actually a normal biological response in certain circumstances. You can see this if you spend time around animals even. Under situations of extreme stress, injury, or death of another the animals can be seen to be subdued and even depressed. Under extreme circumstances animals will often wonder off, abandon the group and die alone, rather than put the group at risk due to the problem with the individual animal. Since we share 90% of our genome and biology with most mammals, i think much of the underlying physiology may be the same perhaps?

    A long time back I read a paper where they discussed how depression in humans might be an evolved response-I am hurt/sick/in need of assistance, observe these signs of pain, both emotional and/or physical, please help. As we are a social species some of us-especially the Fis, will be prone to helping, which then leads to social obligatory ties across the pack/herd. I scratch your back, you scratch mine. In clinical, long term depression that response ballons out of control, perhaps? Or perhaps that would be the normal progression for that individual to leave the pack, due to its injury/problem??? That sounds really awful, but biology is a bitch.

  4. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Why NF's pity themselves so much?

    Don't worry, they likely pity you too.
    Heh. My point, exactly.

  5. #235
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    Originally Posted by Kai
    Depression can be hard for most people to understand considering it's so against fundamental human nature, even for those who consider themselves caring individuals. It's the reason that depressed people are often shouted at to "Man up/Stop it" by unsympathetic people or "Cheer up" by people that are sympathetic but don't really understand that it's much more difficult to do so. Eventually these people get labelled as attention seeking emos or lazy people but considering the amount of people that suffer from the condition, yeah...
    Sorry Kai, I couldnt find the orginal post but wanted to comment on this. I think depression is actually a normal biological response in certain circumstances. You can see this if you spend time around animals even. Under situations of extreme stress, injury, or death of another the animals can be seen to be subdued and even depressed. Under extreme circumstances animals will often wonder off, abandon the group and die alone, rather than put the group at risk due to the problem with the individual animal. Since we share 90% of our genome and biology with most mammals, i think much of the underlying physiology may be the same perhaps?

    A long time back I read a paper where they discussed how depression in humans might be an evolved response-I am hurt/sick/in need of assistance, observe these signs of pain, both emotional and/or physical, please help. As we are a social species some of us-especially the Fis, will be prone to helping, which then leads to social obligatory ties across the pack/herd. I scratch your back, you scratch mine. In clinical, long term depression that response ballons out of control, perhaps? Or perhaps that would be the normal progression for that individual to leave the pack, due to its injury/problem??? That sounds really awful, but biology is a bitch.
    Hm. That's quite interesting. It certainly gives me a new tool to argue the existance of depression. Friends constantly claim that depression and some of the effects of it, more specifically the exhibiting suicidal thoughts and desire for death goes against the 'natural' human desire to want to live and pro-create. Therefore it doesn't exist! Unfortunately I couldn't beat their logic since I fail at arguements in real life. >__<

    It sounds second one like a reasonable theory. There's abit of problem...
    1. The individual desires to keep their depression a secret.
    2. The individual is usually no longer concerned about their surroundings and peers, the focus is on themselves and their pain.

    Granted it's possible that we're just not conscious that we're doing this. It's hard to believe that humans can still be affected by this sort of thing, but eh... I don't really know enough about evolutionary biology and biological psychology to comment. So I'll just go ahead with what's been brought up.

    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    Maybe for an ISTP in this situation this is the correct answer. For him that is how he would get past a tough emotionally charged issue. However the correct answer for him-a strong thinker- was totally the wrong answer for her-a strong feeler. Different solutions for different types to the same problem. This even sounds true for Fe vs Fi.
    It seems a little odd that the ISTP assumes that he'll be able to stay so emotionally calm and stable in such scenarios without having experienced it. Much more better to take the safer route that, especially if it's obvious that the person is still suffering. It's abit silly to say: Just forget about it. Seems like one of those statements that generate the response: "Well... Don't you think I would have already taken the most obvious solution if I could?"

    He (like myself) has Asperger's and a Ti-dominant Aspie trying to give advice in such situations is a recipe for a train-wreck.
    Ah. Didn't read that part...

  6. #236
    Aspie Idealist TaylorS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    Maybe for an ISTP in this situation this is the correct answer. For him that is how he would get past a tough emotionally charged issue. However the correct answer for him-a strong thinker- was totally the wrong answer for her-a strong feeler. Different solutions for different types to the same problem. This even sounds true for Fe vs Fi.
    This is a very good point. People always have a tendency of projecting their own way of thinking into the mind of other people.
    Autistic INFP


  7. #237
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    i know an istj that sucks at empathy...but i don't think all t's are that way....are they??
    Quote Originally Posted by TaylorS View Post
    I've read that Ts can get themselves into trouble when they try to solve a friend's problem by trying to solve the issue with total objectivity and thus run roughshod over the friend's feelings without meaning too. An example I have ran into was a ISTP friend trying to console another friend of ours, an ESFP, who had been raped that she just needed to "quit thinking about it".
    To be completly honest I can see myself saying something like this.
    I was thinking about opening a thread about this but I have concluded that this would come as controversy for the sake of controversy.
    So I never opened this thread.


    As for unempathic thinkers. Yes we can be quite unempathic. Especially if that T is strong. Strong Ts most of the time don't feel empathy or sympathy towards people. But we don't want anyone hurt either.


    But sometimes we just have to shock people for the sake of doing it.
    Here is something I did a few days ago.

    Sitatuion: Bank robber fires 7 shots into the cop but the doctors managed to save him somehow. But most organs and limbs have suffered heavy injuries.



    EF female: This is so terribe and so wrong. The worst thing is that he will never be healthy and complete again. Imagine how will this effect his entire family for the rest of his life and it will always remember them on this day.
    Maybe it would have been batter that he died. I mean he is too young for this. (falls into a depression)


    Me: I truly don't see the problem. Doctors managed to save him and he lives for now. If it turns out that he can't live like this he can always commit suicide. In the case that it gets that bad.
    Problem solved.

    I have said this without any excitment in voice and I did not look at her.
    So it sounded even more blunt then it was.

  8. #238
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Hm. That's quite interesting. It certainly gives me a new tool to argue the existance of depression. Friends constantly claim that depression and some of the effects of it, more specifically the exhibiting suicidal thoughts and desire for death goes against the 'natural' human desire to want to live and pro-create. Therefore it doesn't exist! Unfortunately I couldn't beat their logic since I fail at arguements in real life. >__<

    It sounds second one like a reasonable theory. There's abit of problem...
    1. The individual desires to keep their depression a secret.
    2. The individual is usually no longer concerned about their surroundings and peers, the focus is on themselves and their pain.

    Granted it's possible that we're just not conscious that we're doing this. It's hard to believe that humans can still be affected by this sort of thing, but eh... I don't really know enough about evolutionary biology and biological psychology to comment. So I'll just go ahead with what's been brought up.
    Maybe this is where we get really screwed as society teaches us to hide when it should instead be used as a signal that we are having issues.

    I watched a talk from a harvard prof from the WHO a couple of years back whcih showed that 30% of folks-worldwide- suffer from a moderate to major mental illness during our lives. Yet in most every society around the world it is stigmatized to such as extent that folks dont aslways seek help.

    its close to home for me-the whole topic-as while I have never suffered from chronic longterm depression, I had a coworker commit suicide this last year. We are a very small company, yet no one knew what was going on, he hid it so well. We were all very shaken up, and left wondering how to help and what we could have done differently to have helped him.

    anyways, just my two cents

  9. #239
    Aspie Idealist TaylorS's Avatar
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    In my case as an INFJ I have less of an issue with self-pity and far more issues with beating myself up with self-criticism, especially when my Ni and Fe give conflicting motivations.

    Self-pity would seem more what a Fi-dominant person with painful memories would suffer from.
    Autistic INFP


  10. #240
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    To be completly honest I can see myself saying something like this.
    I was thinking about opening a thread about this but I have concluded that this would come as controversy for the sake of controversy.
    So I never opened this thread.

    As for unempathic thinkers. Yes we can be quite unempathic. Especially if that T is strong. Strong Ts most of the time don't feel empathy or sympathy towards people. But we don't want anyone hurt either.
    It's hard for me to believe this. The reason I say this because it'd just make total sense to me that if somebody is aware of another person, they'd understand that they think differently and therefore can easily just imagine how the other person would be. (It doesn't even have to be on an emotional level, it can be on an intellectual level. It's just basically understanding another persons perspective.)

    While it doesn't make total sense to you. It's not like you don't grasp that there are feelers in the world, and that they operate on a different system. You don't exactly claim that your thinking is the only method, therefore it seems unlikely that you will be purely unempathetic. That seems more of someone that doesn't have understanding or is ignorant.

    But sometimes we just have to shock people for the sake of doing it.
    Here is something I did a few days ago.

    Sitatuion: Bank robber fires 7 shots into the cop but the doctors managed to save him somehow. But most organs and limbs have suffered heavy injuries.



    EF female: This is so terribe and so wrong. The worst thing is that he will never be healthy and complete again. Imagine how will this effect his entire family for the rest of his life and it will always remember them on this day.
    Maybe it would have been batter that he died. I mean he is too young for this. (falls into a depression)


    Me: I truly don't see the problem. Doctors managed to save him and he lives for now. If it turns out that he can't live like this he can always commit suicide. In the case that it gets that bad.
    Problem solved.

    I have said this without any excitment in voice and I did not look at her.
    So it sounded even more blunt then it was.
    Then you confuse me as to why you do this >_<!

    Was that just to shock the person? Are you seriously telling me that you can't understand the emotional implications that a person may have, even if you don't experience it yourself? How the past can't affects the present and the future? [This is retarded: I'm going against my earlier arguement that non-depressed people aren't really going to understand what it means to be depressed. But even then one can have a rough idea.]

    I'm more likely to believe that you simply decided to reject consideration of the emotional aspect of the problem.

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