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  1. #221
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Ah. Well, not necessarily. I just don't think anyone who's not Ni dominant could understand. There's a high degree of disconnection in our default mindframe, and we have to learn how to feel connected. Reverting to disconnection is essentially a "fallback" state. Falling out of our learned behavior into a baseline mode.

    It really reminds me of an argument I had with someone recently. I had to explain that I experience connection to people differently. For me, I have to focus energy on maintaining an emotional connection, and if I do nothing, it fades. Where as apparently, most people feel inherently connected, and actually have to expend effort to disconnect. When I described this, the person was really freaked out and said that was frightening to them. Which is why I try to hide how my mind and emotions work from most people.

    You seem determined to dismiss all of this as inexperience, though, so I'm pretty sure you'll never believe that I really understand what depression/numbness/apathy means unless I have the same reaction to it that you would.
    That's because I see this more as an appeal to the fact that I'm "Ni" therefore nobody can understand me. Essentially I see you doing what you were doing with INFPs earlier on, attempting to disassociate yourself from them because they were FPs. And now that I've come in with something opposing as an IFJ, you conclude that it's the SF.

    Personally I don't think you understand my position very well, or perhaps you understand it the reasoning intellectually but don't realise just how much of an realistic effect it can have on someone (In the same manner you react negatively to someone who would self-harm.) I think the easiest way to clear up this issue is by getting someone (Preferably an INFJ) who has undergone a constant period of numbness, or endured depression otherwise it's all speculation of what it feels like.

    In the same manner I can't conclude that I fully understand depression because I have never been in that state before. However I have experienced long term numbness and it's something that I'm extremely concerned about for a long period of time. Forgive me, but it really doesn't sound like you have experienced anything to that effect although I could be entirely wrong. You could clear that issue up for me.

    One thing I'll agree with is that your emotions are yours, and there isn't any right or wrong emotion. But if you are going to attack me for not coping well, I sure as hope you understand my position first and the position of others, and that everybody is along the same line of thought. It's not good you thinking that these people are talking about stress, when in fact they are experiencing burnt out for example.

    PS. Because I'm in a Ti war mode. Your experience of maintaining friendship doesn't sound that unusual from an introverted perspective. But I suppose you were just raising the point that we are in an arguing mode, and that I was definitely on different wave lenghts.

  2. #222
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Yes, I understand that. Although I am confused about why the raw emotions would flow through first when you stand back. I think you have the perspective you do because you can't "switch out" of defining your reality in emotional terms when this happens. I don't know... I just don't think we can communicate. We experience things too differently.
    Raw emotions are the things first experienced. Then we process these emotions to generate feelings and moods.

    Personally I don't like the projection on me that I'm an irrational creature as most of my friends would define me as an extremely collected individual.

    But meh... You've already pulled out the "I'm N/You're S" trump card so I won't go any further. What can I do?

  3. #223
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    In the same manner I can't conclude that I fully understand depression because I have never been in that state before. However I have experienced long term numbness and it's something that I'm extremely concerned about for a long period of time. Forgive me, but it really doesn't sound like you have experienced anything to that effect although I could be entirely wrong. You could clear that issue up for me.
    Well, I'm not certain that I have. But I will say this... I've experienced several long stretches where I spent several months (once even a year) with no motivation to do anything except sit up, eat, and go online or watch TV. So that's what I did. Most people would consider that depression, but it's possible that I was just being extremely lazy and somehow enjoyed it. I know that during such times, I've generally felt rather empty, but could manage by keeping my mind occupied with ideas I found interesting.

    I guess it all depends on how you define depression. Perhaps I've never emotionally invested myself in something enough to suffer from the loss of it to the point that my experience of disconnection would count as valid.

    PS. Because I'm in a Ti war mode. Your experience of maintaining friendship doesn't sound that unusual from an introverted perspective. But I suppose you were just raising the point that we are in an arguing mode, and that I was definitely on different wave lenghts.
    We might be on different wavelengths. I guess the point is, there's no way to tell if I understand what you're talking about or not. We're relying on words that might not have the same meaning to both of us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Raw emotions are the things first experienced. Then we process these emotions to generate feelings and moods.

    Personally I don't like the projection on me that I'm an irrational creature as most of my friends would define me as an extremely collected individual.

    But meh... You've already pulled out the "I'm N/You're S" trump card so I won't go any further. What can I do?
    I didn't say you were an irrational creature. I just meant to imply that raw emotions might not be the first thing everyone experiences. You seem quite rational, just different. If you experience raw emotions first, that's just how you are. It has it's advantages and disadvantages. There's not a "right" or "wrong" way to experience things.

    I agree that you seem very collected, I've had a more interesting discussion with you so far than with many other people I've encountered.

  4. #224
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, I'm not certain that I have. But I will say this... I've experienced several long stretches where I spent several months (once even a year) with no motivation to do anything except sit up, eat, and go online or watch TV. So that's what I did. Most people would consider that depression, but it's possible that I was just being extremely lazy and somehow enjoyed it. I know that during such times, I've generally felt rather empty, but could manage by keeping my mind occupied with ideas I found interesting.

    I guess it all depends on how you define depression. Perhaps I've never emotionally invested myself in something enough to suffer from the loss of it to the point that my experience of disconnection would count as valid.
    Alright we're on the same wavelenght. This is something I've experienced but I don't consider it depression - it could be dysthymia. But what the hell I'm not a medical doctor, it could be depression. It's possible I've been experiencing depression for a long time but I wouldn't know. I personally don't believe I am.

    Now I don't even remember what the original point behind all of this was. Why I believe that experiencing emotions is better than feeling empty?

    We'll just agree to disagree. Looks like one of those situation. Because I don't think your experience of disconnection is invalid. But I'm not sure if you should attribute it to type, it's possible that it's more personal to yourself.

    We might be on different wavelengths. I guess the point is, there's no way to tell if I understand what you're talking about or not. We're relying on words that might not have the same meaning to both of us.
    That's definitely true...
    I often get into arguements over semantics/definitions because they change the idea. And considering we're different individuals, we're never going to match up perfectly which is the reason I thought it was important to clarify the meaning first.

    I didn't say you were an irrational creature. I just meant to imply that raw emotions might not be the first thing everyone experiences.
    I meant raw emotions are the things that people will experience in the manner that a person touching a stove will immediately experience pain, even if it registers only a few seconds later. Personally I don't really experience strong emotions, which is also the reason why I can argue with people about issues that are usually quite contraversial such as incest or polymory (Hopefully I don't get killed for this). They don't produce strong reactions within me, apart from the fact that I feel it's my duty to defend people who get slated by bias. I keep bringing this up and I'm sure it's starting to sound rather egotistical but I rely on Ti to try and figure out what's the best way to approach things using universal systems.

    Looking at it this way... I've got to admit that my detachment from emotions also has it's benefits. But I think I've lost out quite alot from not experiencing highs.

  5. #225
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Alright we're on the same wavelenght. This is something I've experienced but I don't consider it depression - it could be dysthymia. But what the hell I'm not a medical doctor, it could be depression. It's possible I've been experiencing depression for a long time but I wouldn't know. I personally don't believe I am.
    Well, I guess I can see that. Depression might be something that only happens when you get really invested in something like a significant other or career, and they die or you lose your job or something. I can believe that.

    Now I don't even remember what the original point behind all of this was. Why I believe that experiencing emotions is better than feeling empty?

    We'll just agree to disagree. Looks like one of those situation. Because I don't think your experience of disconnection is invalid. But I'm not sure if you should attribute it to type, it's possible that it's more personal to yourself.
    Yeah. I don't necessarily think feeling empty is good, but it's more... I don't know. It's like, when I get absorbed by it... I don't mind it. It doesn't feel "wrong." It almost feels comfortable, even though it's not. It's not bad enough that I'd wish for negative emotions in such a state, but I would still rather be able to feel.

    It probably is very personal to myself. Maybe that's why I can't explain it.


    That's definitely true...
    I often get into arguements over semantics/definitions because they change the idea. And considering we're different individuals, we're never going to match up perfectly which is the reason I thought it was important to clarify the meaning first.
    Yes, me too. That I can relate to.


    I meant raw emotions are the things that people will experience in the manner that a person touching a stove will immediately experience pain, even if it registers only a few seconds later. Personally I don't really experience strong emotions, which is also the reason why I can argue with people about issues that are usually quite contraversial such as incest or polymory. They don't produce strong reactions within me, I rely on Ti to try and figure out what's the best way to approach things using universal systems.
    Ah, I would call what you're talking about a sensation, not an emotion. And I relate to the rest of what you said as well.

    It looks like we're not that different after all, just a little mixed up about where the other was coming from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Looking at it this way... I've got to admit that my detachment from emotions also has it's benefits. But I think I've lost out quite alot from not experiencing highs.
    That seems very close to what I was trying to say in many ways.

  6. #226
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Yeah. I don't necessarily think feeling empty is good, but it's more... I don't know. It's like, when I get absorbed by it... I don't mind it. It doesn't feel "wrong." It almost feels comfortable, even though it's not. It's not bad enough that I'd wish for negative emotions in such a state, but I would still rather be able to feel.

    It probably is very personal to myself. Maybe that's why I can't explain it.
    I'm sort of in the state right now, posting on this forum. It does feel comfortable but at the same time I know in the back of my head, that for me, this is all just a distraction and I am literally damaging myself by being in this state.

    It does sound like a personal thing.

    It looks like we're not that different after all, just a little mixed up about where the other was coming from.
    Good stuff.

  7. #227
    Aspie Idealist TaylorS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    In some situations, this is indeed a flaw in our psychology that we can't do much besides work around. I admit that.

    However, in some situations... it's actually an emotion that's causing it to feel like there's a problem with our situation rather than the other way around. In this situation, working through the emotion resolves everything, and there's no need to do anything else.

    In fact, an NT, whose first impulse would be to change something objective in response to a sense that something is wrong, might end up unconsciously running away from resolving the real emotional issue that's actually causing the pain, and just drowning it out or masking it temporarily.

    So depending on whether the true source of the discomfort is emotional/psychological or objective/physical in nature, the NF or NT response is more effective.

    Does that make sense?
    I've read that Ts can get themselves into trouble when they try to solve a friend's problem by trying to solve the issue with total objectivity and thus run roughshod over the friend's feelings without meaning too. An example I have ran into was a ISTP friend trying to console another friend of ours, an ESFP, who had been raped that she just needed to "quit thinking about it".
    Autistic INFP


  8. #228
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaylorS View Post
    I've read that Ts can get themselves into trouble when they try to solve a friend's problem by trying to solve the issue with total objectivity and thus run roughshod over the friend's feelings without meaning too. An example I have ran into was a ISTP friend trying to console another friend of ours, an ESFP, who had been raped that she just needed to "quit thinking about it".
    That's pretty horrible. I can't believe someone would say that. Are you sure he was just a T, and not truly just emotionally impaired to the point of completely lacking empathy?

    I mean, that's what you tell someone when they have a headache and they're whining about not having Aspirin. Not when... something like that happens. When I hear about people saying stuff like that, that pretty much removes all my doubt about being an F.

  9. #229
    Aspie Idealist TaylorS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    This what I am trying to say since I came here. But people don't believe me.


    My logic goes like this:

    If a problem can be sovled it will be solved and if it can't be solved then there is no point in worring and getting depressed about it.

    Also I am not too emotional person by default so by I have a natural tendency to avoid depression.
    While everybody are prepared to place bets that I am quite depressed.


    The only "flaw" of this is that you don't get too big bonuses from good emotions.
    That may be superficially correct but it's bad advice in many situations. To again use the example of my ESFP friend who was raped, obsessive worrying caused by a traumatic event is not something a person can just suddenly choose to quit worrying about, telling people with PTSD to simply "quit worrying about it" is belittling and risks traumatizing them more.
    Autistic INFP


  10. #230
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    i know an istj that sucks at empathy...but i don't think all t's are that way....are they??
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

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