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  1. #211
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Here something about what I am talking about.


    That makes me sad

    Was that a figure of speach or was there something deeper in the first sentence ?
    It was a figure of speech. It basically means, "I have become aware from your post that you are experiencing sadness, and I wish to express that I empathize with you."


    Like the statement " There is no plan, she just wants to see you do something you enjoy and like".

    I roll eyes on that one on regular basis. Which is because I don't understand this approach. I can understand the context and that people do this when they love someone and that they do it because they love them.
    That statement. The hidden meaning is, if a person loves you, they should wish to see you do something you enjoy and like (ahead of accomplishing something they think you should) since that will result in your happiness. Essentially, it's defining love as valuing the happiness of another person, and giving you a way to figure out whether they feel love for you or not.

    Does that make sense?

  2. #212
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    I'm not sure how often you experience these sort of feelings I'd argue that numbness is much much more worse than pain. It's the state of apathy, when somebody has given up completely that they don't even care about their pain anymore. It's when life has lost it's will. Depressed people are often numb and dead inside. So I'm not entirely sure how people can argue that numbness is a better emotional state.

    Think of the silent treatment or disappointment, it is often more effective than anger for exactly this reason. To feel pain or anger, while not the greatest of emotions is to at least still feel like you are yourself, that you are alive.
    I guess the thing is, pain and other negative emotions don't make me feel more myself than numbness. If anything, they make me feel less like myself. And they tend to put me at risk of hurting other people far more often than numbness or apathy. My negative emotions (like pain and anger) generally make me want to lash out and hurt others rather than turn inwards when I'm at that level. In other words, that kind of stress makes me become a sadist rather than a masochist, if I feel anything at all. Which is probably why I'd rather stay numb and dead until I'm out of it.

    I don't know... I think we're just very different kinds of people and lack the capacity to understand each other. Which is why we don't get it. Maybe your core isn't the same as my core. What you perceive as "self" isn't the same thing I do.

  3. #213
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I guess the thing is, pain and other negative emotions don't make me feel more myself than numbness. If anything, they make me feel less like myself. And they tend to put me at risk of hurting other people far more often than numbness or apathy. My negative emotions (like pain and anger) generally make me want to lash out and hurt others rather than turn inwards when I'm at that level. In other words, that kind of stress makes me become a sadist rather than a masochist, if I feel anything at all. Which is probably why I'd rather stay numb and dead until I'm out of it.

    I don't know... I think we're just very different kinds of people and lack the capacity to understand each other. Which is why we don't get it. Maybe your core isn't the same as my core. What you perceive as "self" isn't the same thing I do.
    Hmm. Guess it depends on the sort of pain that we're describing. My desired emotional level works sort of like this (It's rather Fe really...)

    Happiness
    Sadness (Although there are times where I just feel like becoming numb, but really that's not true.)
    Numbness
    Anger (This one I avoid the most for similar reasons.)

    I've had occasions where I've wanted to cry but couldn't. It's during these occasions where I think "There's a problem. I'm sad but I'm not as upset as I should be." it's during these times when I know that I have essentially closed myself off to emotions, even though I'm an FJ. By closing myself off to emotions, I've disconnected from myself and others.

    Negative emotions (except anger) definitely seem better than not feeeeeeeeeeeling.
    _________________________________
    Edit: I don't know where the extreme sadness would fit on that list, but the sadness I'm usually referring to is similar to melancholy. Which can also appear to be like wallowing.

    Edit2: I'm under developed in Fe. Therefore I resort to Ti more often than not, I suspect it's also the reason that I'm a rather stotic person despite having the underlayer of caring Fe. This is reflected when I ask friends which I value more in myself - empathy/logical/calmness and some of them giving the latter two.

  4. #214
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    I've had occasions where I've wanted to cry but couldn't. It's during these occasions where I think "There's a problem. I'm sad but I'm not as upset as I should be." it's during these times when I know that I have essentially closed myself off to emotions, even though I'm an FJ. By closing myself off to emotions, I've disconnected from myself and others.

    Negative emotions (except anger) definitely seem better than not feeeeeeeeeeeling.
    Right. Why is it unacceptable to stay in a state where you've disconnected from yourself and others? I don't really want to stay connected when it brings me something negative. Sometimes it's a relief not to have to deal with being upset right away, because it gives you time to think lucidly about how best to deal with your situation before being overwhelmed.

    Oh, well. I guess some people just can't cope with that disconnected state as well as others. INJs are only 3% of the population... maybe it's got something to do with how Ni works.

  5. #215
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Right. Why is it unacceptable to stay in a state where you've disconnected from yourself and others? I don't really want to stay connected when it brings me something negative. Sometimes it's a relief not to have to deal with being upset right away, because it gives you time to think lucidly about how best to deal with your situation before being overwhelmed.

    Oh, well. I guess some people just can't cope with that disconnected state as well as others.
    I don't know whether you have experienced the disconnection that I'm talking about. But by disconnecting from others on a negative issue, I relate to antisocial words about by being cut off with emotions. By giving up the negative emotions I also give up the positive emotions, and many feelers use their feelings as navigation systems in life. It's not a simple case of reconnecting when the positive emotions are there to be experienced, and disconnecting from the bad at will.

    Are you arguing that this is a better emotional state to be in? To numb all emotions in order to avoid just the negative ones?
    Unlike AO who seems to have no problems with being disconnected from emotions long term. This is a problem for me. It's also the reason that other people often conclude that AO is depressed or numbed out, because this happens to be a common feature of depressed people.

    For the record: I've never identified myself as being depressed. But it's not the same as being blue for a short period of time.

  6. #216
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    ^ I don't think any of us can make you understand. We could explain all day but not give you an answer that satisfies you because I think you want a logical answer and you want to be able to apply a logical construct to feeling and it can't really be done.

    Plus, from the way you word things, you use inflamatory words and it makes it seem like you already have a set, negative idea in your mind. It is very hard for people who hold set, negaitive bias to hear and understand what others are trying to say that counters those ideas.
    I know you can't. Long ago I have made peace with the fact that I will never understand emotions of others completely. (if that is even possible)
    Which is because I don't relate to many traits that are typical for F.
    Understanding a F from the outside actually not a problem for me. It is just that it is likely that I will disagree. But understanding them for within is another story.

    Does this work the other way around as well ?


    You are right I have a set but this is because I function that way.
    But I can change my opinion if I find a better one.



    Quote Originally Posted by sanveane View Post
    Actually, you did say in the OP that you thought NT discussion of such topics would be more constructive. It's patently wrong. It's a bias you have that I wished to highlight to you.

    Having said that, I have been wondering if the problem is a difficulty you have with "theory of mind". That is, being able to understand and attribute motives, mental states, knowledge, beliefs of/to others. Without that ability, it is difficult to be able to understand the internal world of others if it differs from your own perspective.
    Well, the OP was written as a provocation.

    I think that INTPs are more likely to preserve their emotional integrity then INFPs. But when INTPs or other NTs go wrong then it is really a mess.



    I think you are overlooking one fact in my post. Which is that "constructive" is very subjective term. I made that statement because there is less
    of "oh my god" and "that is terrible" in posts on NT forum.
    My postion was/is entirely subjective/relative.


    Thanks for the link.
    I will go through that text when I will have the time.



    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    It was a figure of speech. It basically means, "I have become aware from your post that you are experiencing sadness, and I wish to express that I empathize with you."



    That statement. The hidden meaning is, if a person loves you, they should wish to see you do something you enjoy and like (ahead of accomplishing something they think you should) since that will result in your happiness. Essentially, it's defining love as valuing the happiness of another person, and giving you a way to figure out whether they feel love for you or not.

    Does that make sense?
    1.Ok.

    2.Yes it does and I am aware of the mechanism behind it. But this approach towards people always suprises me over and over agian.



    [QUOTE=Kai;647042]

    Negative emotions (except anger) definitely seem better than not feeeeeeeeeeeling.

    Would you care to explain this claim ?

  7. #217
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanveane View Post
    Actually, you did say in the OP that you thought NT discussion of such topics would be more constructive. It's patently wrong. It's a bias you have that I wished to highlight to you.

    Having said that, I have been wondering if the problem is a difficulty you have with "theory of mind". That is, being able to understand and attribute motives, mental states, knowledge, beliefs of/to others. Without that ability, it is difficult to be able to understand the internal world of others if it differs from your own perspective.
    Haha.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  8. #218
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post

    Negative emotions (except anger) definitely seem better than not feeeeeeeeeeeling.
    Would you care to explain this claim ?
    You made a thread a while back.
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...rtant-you.html

    Emotions are my navigation tool. Emotions are what fuel motivation. Apathy can and will eventually lead to nihilism. I can see that might not be the case for yourself. You've already mentioned that your motivations seem to come from nowhere, but I'd argue that is your conscious understanding of yourself.

    Why is Nihilism bad?
    You'll probably find your answer from asking why the common stereotype for NFs are constantly search for meaning and purpose or generating these things within their own lives.

    Oh, well. I guess some people just can't cope with that disconnected state as well as others. INJs are only 3% of the population... maybe it's got something to do with how Ni works.
    That's not really a valid arguement.... =.=
    You can't just claim that "Oh, I'm different therefore it doesn't apply to my type" almost as if depression/numbness (desire for emotions) doesn't ever occur to INJs. - I'm certain that it can happen to anybody.

    It's not a matter of coping with disconnected states. It's a matter of being in a disconnected state permenantly, or for so long that it's difficult to get back out of it. This isn't the same as standing back and letting the raw emotions flow through first and processing things.

  9. #219
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Are you arguing that this is a better emotional state to be in? To numb all emotions in order to avoid just the negative ones?
    Unlike AO who seems to have no problems with being disconnected from emotions long term. This is a problem for me. It's also the reason that other people often conclude that AO is depressed or numbed out, because this happens to be a common feature of depressed people.

    For the record: I've never identified myself as being depressed. But it's not the same as being blue for a short period of time.
    Ah. Well, not necessarily. I just don't think anyone who's not Ni dominant could understand. There's a high degree of disconnection in our default mindframe, and we have to learn how to feel connected. Reverting to disconnection is essentially a "fallback" state. Falling out of our learned behavior into a baseline mode.

    It really reminds me of an argument I had with someone recently. I had to explain that I experience connection to people differently. For me, I have to focus energy on maintaining an emotional connection, and if I do nothing, it fades. Where as apparently, most people feel inherently connected, and actually have to expend effort to disconnect. When I described this, the person was really freaked out and said that was frightening to them. Which is why I try to hide how my mind and emotions work from most people.

    You seem determined to dismiss all of this as inexperience, though, so I'm pretty sure you'll never believe that I really understand what depression/numbness/apathy means unless I have the same reaction to it that you would.
    It's not a matter of coping with disconnected states. It's a matter of being in a disconnected state permenantly, or for so long that it's difficult to get back out of it. This isn't the same as standing back and letting the raw emotions flow through first and processing things.
    Yes, I understand that. Although I am confused about why the raw emotions would flow through first when you stand back. I think you have the perspective you do because you can't "switch out" of defining your reality in emotional terms when this happens. I don't know... I just don't think we can communicate. We experience things too differently.

  10. #220
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I know you can't. Long ago I have made peace with the fact that I will never understand emotions of others completely. (if that is even possible)
    ... that concludes the topic, right?

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