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  1. #41
    Resident Snot-Nose GZA's Avatar
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    I don't mirror, per se, but I sort of simplify my thoughts when I speak so they are not so abstract and wild. A lot of the time the sort of translation between the crazy web of thoughts, insights, emotions, memories, the absurd humour that emerges from these, and the way I verbally express them ends up muddled, but it might be better than being completely misunderstood when trying to say things in as literal a way as I see them as I can. The difference between these approaches in terms of how people percieve me is that when I've tried to verbalize my thoughts literally, some people percieved me as crazy/insane, and when I try to simplify it into normal words, some people percieve me as dumb. For the most part, it doesn't bother me much because I know that I'm not insane (maybe a little eccentric) and not dumb (I often end up suprising people later when they get to know me better and I can talk about more serious things in a more fluid and intelligent way).

  2. #42
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    i didn't read all this but you're just using Ne and Te a lot. this is what extroversion is. it is merging with the actuality placed before you, which you are implicated in, from which you cannot escape. so go with it, let it effect you, influence you, change you, etc. that is one perspective.

    the other is that is more about the N of Ne. that you are using your perceiving function. you are juggling possibilities and exploring new ways to be. it IS what adapting is made up of. evolving. learning, especially learning. judgment is great, it is what gives our lives value and meaning. but perceiving gives our lives novelty, freshness, and zest. it allows us to get unstuck, to make ourselves new, to reproduce ourselves with as much mutation as possible, experimentation, exploration, finding something better (woah where did that judgment sneak in...).

    if you lose your sense of self totally you will be an inhumane monster. that is caught somewhere in the muddled mix of Te-Fi or Fe-Ti. judgment = assigning value. whichever way that works out is the kind of balance that will be as you as you could be. your meaning. altho not identifying the self, the idea of self, the lens of self with our technological roots, our skills and styles for perception and proprioception, is pretty much incoherent as well.

  3. #43
    the Dark Prophet of Kualu
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i didn't read all this but you're just using Ne and Te a lot. this is what extroversion is. it is merging with the actuality placed before you, which you are implicated in, from which you cannot escape. so go with it, let it effect you, influence you, change you, etc. that is one perspective.

    the other is that is more about the N of Ne. that you are using your perceiving function. you are juggling possibilities and exploring new ways to be. it IS what adapting is made up of. evolving. learning, especially learning. judgment is great, it is what gives our lives value and meaning. but perceiving gives our lives novelty, freshness, and zest. it allows us to get unstuck, to make ourselves new, to reproduce ourselves with as much mutation as possible, experimentation, exploration, finding something better (woah where did that judgment sneak in...).

    if you lose your sense of self totally you will be an inhumane monster. that is caught somewhere in the muddled mix of Te-Fi or Fe-Ti. judgment = assigning value. whichever way that works out is the kind of balance that will be as you as you could be. your meaning. although not identifying the self, the idea of self, the lens of self with our technological roots, our skills and styles for perception and proprioception, is pretty much incoherent as well.


    Well, I wonder if the reason that you did not read all of it was because you had already made up your mind and didn't think that anything new in this thread would reveal itself.
    And now I wonder if that was a question or not.

    Inhumane monster. That term is somewhat off. I really dislike the word "inhumane". Torture is a human way of doing things. It cannot be written off as something humans does not do. Or the holocaust. That was also humans. Inhumane my ass. Just covering up for something you don't want to acknowledge.
    I can go along with being a human monster. If I now have lost all of my "former glory".

    Otherwise I kind of agree with your post.
    Open for interpretation.
    Jo
    Fell for the temptation: Nohari / Johari

  4. #44
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    the other is that is more about the N of Ne. that you are using your perceiving function. you are juggling possibilities and exploring new ways to be. it IS what adapting is made up of. evolving. learning, especially learning. judgment is great, it is what gives our lives value and meaning. but perceiving gives our lives novelty, freshness, and zest. it allows us to get unstuck, to make ourselves new, to reproduce ourselves with as much mutation as possible, experimentation, exploration, finding something better (woah where did that judgment sneak in...).

    if you lose your sense of self totally you will be an inhumane monster. that is caught somewhere in the muddled mix of Te-Fi or Fe-Ti. judgment = assigning value. whichever way that works out is the kind of balance that will be as you as you could be. your meaning. altho not identifying the self, the idea of self, the lens of self with our technological roots, our skills and styles for perception and proprioception, is pretty much incoherent as well.
    State, potentially could a person be much more "inhumane monster" like-could use a better term-if all they did was use Ne almost exclusively-like a human vacuum onto others-constantly changing, moving, manipulating, a human vamprire of sorts for the other people around them, in order to gain feedback??? They feed off of others using massive amounts of Ne to give themselves a sense of identity?

  5. #45
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gtzk View Post
    Well, I wonder if the reason that you did not read all of it was because you had already made up your mind and didn't think that anything new in this thread would reveal itself.
    And now I wonder if that was a question or not.
    i was certainly more in the mood to speak than to listen. if my attempts to re-frame the problem were unhelpful, that's ok. if they were irritating than i do apologize.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gtzk View Post
    Inhumane monster. That term is somewhat off.
    what i was trying to get at was that without a sense of self you would be inhumane. the sense of self is what gives us the ability to relate toeach other human qua human. hence humane, humanity, etc. the subjective experience that is recreated and (somewhat) reproduced, that is redundant between us (like a language) for us to communicate with some measure of understood dialogue, shared meaning, positions we both can grasp, etc.

    also, i'm not saying you have no sense of self. i hope that was apparent. i think i shifted into you plural for much of that. it was an attempt to outline the boundaries of the problem, which is between the detached objective technological judgment of T and the self-relating feeling judgment of F. and the way in which using those two forms of judgment in conjunction (as pairs) give us our outline as human beings who value things.

    i'm also attempting to get at the how being almost totally imbalanced as far as perceiving (change!) vs judging (value!) would divorce you from the processes of creating meaning for yourself, or for being able to change and gather new information. the possibility within the continuum of these things is what human beings are made up of and constituted for, however, and they can be explored however you may wish.

    i'm not saying you have a problem at all. i get called a shape-shifter myself. i like to explore new things. embody the cultural and subjective experiences around me. to do this fully and completely you have to let go of introverted and excessively judge judge judge tendencies and be more open, receptive, and more adaptive. but introversion is a highly prized skill too, and reflecting on what is important to you, what you value, creating your priorities is a huge aspect of creating yourself, your meaning, your belief and faith in yourself and others and the (social) world at large. you need judgment (value!) to be able to relate to others deeply on a subjective level, to actually understand the experience internally.

  6. #46
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    State, potentially could a person be much more "inhumane monster" like-could use a better term-if all they did was use Ne almost exclusively-like a human vacuum onto others-constantly changing, moving, manipulating, a human vamprire of sorts for the other people around them, in order to gain feedback??? They feed off of others using massive amounts of Ne to give themselves a sense of identity?
    i think the idea of just being 100% perceiving without (value) judgment is terrifying. enfps without seriously explored Fi can do terrible things. the ones that organize their own values and priorities, who take the time to understand and experience their own web of subjective experiences, feeling tones, beliefs, values, emotional ideas, etc, work thru the contradictions of what their own attempt to relate to others has been like and get down deeply into the messy webs of what it means to be human, great. the ones who don't at all, your Ne 100% p vampires, are by definition sociopaths.

  7. #47
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    I have to mirror excitement.
    I'm not easily worked up about events and stuff so people think i'm like depressed or something when they're all like " O M G! We're going to the BEACH!" or. "CHRISTMAS IS COMING IN 19 DAYS!" and i'm like. "Yea, cool whatever ."

    It really rains on people's parade. I just don't get excited about upcoming things. I get excited about things that are going to happen that day but even then I don't really show it, except with some extra chatiness.

    So now I at least try to give a smile and say, "great!" So it doesn't totally ruin days. I'm usually pretty cheerful but sometimes my facial expression goes blank at bad times people say, so sometimes I have to read moods and react appropriately.

  8. #48
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Well, I am not a NF but I will join the party.



    The only way I can really talk to the other people is to distort my approach.


    I have learned to use nice words. like: Please , thank you, sorry , and similar.
    Even if I don't mean it/feel it quite often.
    When I talk to people (especially the ones that don't know me) I pretend to be more friendly then I am and I try not to be too controversial.



    But the main difference is that I hide my Te to a great degree since my natural conversation style is somewhere among the lines of Darth Vader.


    But you simply can't talk to people like that. Since you make them too uncomfortable and/or you come as bossy. Even on this forum my Te is somewhat supprsessed.
    I have concluded that Te displays are usually counter productive.
    Especially since the ratio of my Fe and Te is 1:13 (if test shows the truth)



    Also I have a tendency to say what I don't think.

    1. To avoid pointless conflicts

    2. To test people.


    Sometimes I can present my claims/ideas directly to another person.
    But when a person starts to agree without any real reason. I swich my claims to my real position (or another decoy) .

    I do this beause I am testing how much "submissive" are they.

  9. #49
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    so this afternoon I sat and was chatting with an ENTP and an ENTJ. The ENTP couldnt understand why she was having issues communicating with an ISTJ we had just had a meeting with. I could work with him and the ENTJ could work with him. But watching the ENTP talk with the ISTJ was like watching two folks talk at, or across each other.

    I drew out the functions on the whiteboard:

    ISTJ=Si, Te, Fi

    ENTP=Ne, Ti, Fe
    ENFP=Ne, Fi, Te
    ENTJ=Te, Ni, Se

    the ENTJ looked at it for a second and popped out with "oh, it's like velcro! you cant stick the two pieces together unless they have hooks that match"

    jsut thought it was a neat analogy which sort of fit with the concept of mirroring/matching others to enhance communication

  10. #50
    the Dark Prophet of Kualu
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    also, I'm not saying you have no sense of self. I hope that was apparent.
    It was, I just reacted to the word inhumane. I just don't agree with general population of how it is used. That's another story though.


    I did see myself as a vampire eating up "values" by others. It was a long time ago but I am still unsure on whether or not I am that. I guess just reflecting upon it and finding that time quite... horrible is enough doubt to convince me I am otherwise.

    I always reach this wall of uncertainty. I had a clear view once and now there's but pieces left.
    Open for interpretation.
    Jo
    Fell for the temptation: Nohari / Johari

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