[NF] NF's supposedly hate conflict, yet...

[ptgatsby]

That makes sense. The correspondance between the I/E, S/N and P/J MBTI dimensions and the FFM factors is clearer than for F/T. I think A+/N- would represent the NF as decribed by Keirsey. However, there are also A+/N+ and A-/N+ NF's, the latter seeming more prone to starting conflicts.

I think it's safe to say that in general, A+ will start less conflict than A-, although A+ may be as much of a source of conflict, assuming that there are equal A+ and A- actors involved. But I think it is equally safe to say that N+ will be responsible for starting, carrying on and escalating conflict, whereas N- will be more likely to diffuse and avoid conflict, namely by avoiding escalation and emotions.

So, while F/T might not correlate directly to N+/N-, by virtue that F's are ~some 70% females, and females are heavily shifted towards N+, it can probably be loosely assumed that Fs from MBTI (by virtue of distribution) are more likely to escalate conflict, take things personally and get emotionally involved.

All of this happens regardless of the descriptors used to measure F in MBTI, which is why it seems so unusual. And really, it has no bearing on MBTI, it'd be more accurate to say the reverse - women are generally more emotionally reactive, most women test as F, as a result, more Fs are reactive if you normally distribute the reactivity.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

I wonder how you came to this conclusion - any evidence? I mean, is it based around Beren's social styles? TKI inventories? Did Jung or Myers say anything about this?

Cause in almost every case of mapping type to conflict styles, the nature of interactions/conflict is not based around N/S at all... it is historically based across two dimensions - people and tasks (namely, F/T and J/P)... The degree of conflict has been found along the lines of neuroticism and depending on the conflict being talked about, extroversion... Leaving, ironically, only the N/S divide as the only one that has never been deemed relevent.

Tests like Disc and Firo... they are based around the managerial grid model, just as social styles and nearly every conflict measurement system out there does... So just to sum up - they all use some form of F/T and J/P, some more modern ones will use neuroticism. Almost all use a gradient or quantrant approach, meaning no absolutes. And I don't know of any conflict inventories that use N/S/Openess/etc.

I could explain to you how I came to those conclusions. But thats perhaps more N that you want to go into. It has nothing to do with concrete observations or who said what...just pure Intuitive Systemizing..

 

[Maverick]

I think it's safe to say that in general, A+ will start less conflict than A-, although A+ may be as much of a source of conflict, assuming that there are equal A+ and A- actors involved. But I think it is equally safe to say that N+ will be responsible for starting, carrying on and escalating conflict, whereas N- will be more likely to diffuse and avoid conflict, namely by avoiding escalation and emotions.

So, while F/T might not correlate directly to N+/N-, by virtue that F's are ~some 70% females, and females are heavily shifted towards N+, it can probably be loosely assumed that Fs from MBTI (by virtue of distribution) are more likely to escalate conflict, take things personally and get emotionally involved.

All of this happens regardless of the descriptors used to measure F in MBTI, which is why it seems so unusual. And really, it has no bearing on MBTI, it'd be more accurate to say the reverse - women are generally more emotionally reactive, most women test as F, as a result, more Fs are reactive if you normally distribute the reactivity.

You've got a point. The main problem is that MBTI is lacking in its ability to describe the spectrum of human personality. N+ will probably identify with F over T, yet will possess traits that contradict typical xxFx descriptions. Various measures of emotional intelligence, social skills, or emotional coping skills correlate strongly, negatively, with big five N. Big five N is also related to less spouse satisfaction, more psychological disorders, more workplace conflict, ...

The NF temperament may be subdivided in 3 types depending on A/N combination:

1) A+/N- : The typical NF description, imo. It's safe to say that these people not only avoid conflict, but are slower to perceive slights, tend to see the good in others, trust others, are altruistic, interpret actions more positively, are self-confident, feel good about themselves, are slow to anger, and should possess more emotional and social coping skills (i.e. EIQ negative correlation with N). The stable concern about others would probably create a self-fulfilling prophecy that would make others more trustworthy. Statistically, though, I would predict that this type is under-represented.

2) A+/N+ : This type will probably build up more anger inside, be more depressed, be more anxious, be quick to try to resolve disagreement, be more dependent, ... all the while still believing people have good intentions and being altruistic. I think this type would be fairly common.

3) A-/N+ : I think this type may think they are borderline T if they overidentify with A-. Disagreeableness combined with Neuroticism makes this type quick to perceive slights, distrustful of others and even paranoid, pretentious, manipulative, quick to anger, anxious, self-conscious, with low self-esteem, self-absorbed and depressed. This type will probably be anti-authority (A-) in an unstable way (N+) and have difficulty obeying authority figures. It's probably safe to say that the manipulativeness associated with A- combined with N+ will make for an individual that is apt at playing many relationship games. I think this type is less frequent but may more easily have an interest in typology as A-/N+ typically has identity problems.

 

[targobelle]

Listen to you non NF's rationalize the mind of an NF

Pass over the information that you have received and concentrated on the knowledge and the logical explanation

you might as well take your discussion out of here and it appears that you did not want an answer from one that lives with the NF on a daily basis.

Yes I am miffed by it, and not to cause conflict but to prove a point, you asked NF's and then disregarded their answers (mine included) and then still had the gall to wonder why conflict follows us. I personally feel like my answer wasn't good enough for you and it was over looked, over looked for something that made sense to you.

Bravo you answered your own question!

 

[ptgatsby]

I could explain to you how I came to those conclusions. But thats perhaps more N that you want to go into. It has nothing to do with concrete observations or who said what...just pure Intuitive Systemizing..

So no... Just checking.

You've got a point. The main problem is that MBTI is lacking in its ability to describe the spectrum of human personality. N+ will probably identify with F over T, yet will possess traits that contradict typical xxFx descriptions. Various measures of emotional intelligence, social skills, or emotional coping skills correlate strongly, negatively, with big five N. Big five N is also related to less spouse satisfaction, more psychological disorders, more workplace conflict, ...

Right... it really has very little to do with being an NF. What you are seeing is a person, and that person is generally neurotic, which causes the outbursts of conflict. It just so happens they also tend to test F (not even NF - but you may notice NFs more because Ns are also a minority, meaning selective bias - you notice it more), or you perceive them as F. I think if you measure them yourself, seperating N+ and A+ would show that A+ are distinctly conflict avoidant/cooperative, but the degree of conflict caused would be linked to N+. As such, you could see a lot of A+/N+ being passive aggressive, etc. or inciting conflict in group settings, then trying to make it up (a rather vicious circle of unpredictable behaviour).

Statistically, though, I would predict that this type is under-represented.

If we assume that F = A+, then it is surely underpresented. However, F was based upon "values" and "personal" before the factor analysis in Step II. That means that there is a distinct seperation between the "Empathy" stuff from FFM and the current MBTI tests... So in a way, F does not likely mean A+ except for those that have used a more modern version of the test (which many web tests are not). Not to mention A+ to F is pretty weak anyway, for something that should be describing the same thing.

Listen to you non NF's rationalize the mind of an NF

Just behaviour. I think the underlying message is that the conflict really has very little to do with NFs at all...

 

[Athenian200]

Well, I dislike conflict because it makes me feel threatened, and carries the risk of being hated. If something makes me angry enough to engage in a conflict, however, I would probably be especially vicious. The things that make me especially angry are usually of a personal nature, such as a direct character attack, or something potentially harmful to others. That's why the conflict, when it occurs, is usually of a more personal nature.

 

[Maverick]

It just so happens they also tend to test F (not even NF - but you may notice NFs more because Ns are also a minority, meaning selective bias - you notice it more), or you perceive them as F.

If we assume that F = A+, then it is surely underpresented. However, F was based upon "values" and "personal" before the factor analysis in Step II. That means that there is a distinct seperation between the "Empathy" stuff from FFM and the current MBTI tests... So in a way, F does not likely mean A+ except for those that have used a more modern version of the test (which many web tests are not). Not to mention A+ to F is pretty weak anyway, for something that should be describing the same thing.

But Both N and A correlate to F. Research concludes F = N & A. Also, some people who score A-/N+ identify clearly with xxFx. For the rest, case of O+.

 

[proteanmix]

I could explain to you how I came to those conclusions. But thats perhaps more N that you want to go into. It has nothing to do with concrete observations or who said what...just pure Intuitive Systemizing..

That's snotty and condescending. A nice way of getting out of explaining yourself. :rolli:

You've got a point. The main problem is that MBTI is lacking in its ability to describe the spectrum of human personality...

This is a very good explanation. I agree with Maverick's and pt's descriptions of conflict and NFs.

I've always had a problem with the conflict avoidant parts of NF description. I don't seek out conflict, I try to avoid it, but I'm not afraid of it and it's not like I don't start conflict myself if I think that it will bring about greater harmony. Ignoring an issue doesn't make it go away, you sometimes have to confront it and deal with it. I'm probably A+/N+ in your model (minus the dependent part ). If you look at the ENF descriptions, I don't see how having the type of personality that "inspires world changing visions " and "encourages individual growth and potential" could possibly avoid the conflict that inevitably comes along with such things. The theme that comes with these personalities is change and we know how resistant to change most people are. Well, I guess I should clarify, there are certain types of change that people are more resistant to and ENFs (NFs generally) specialize in the type of personal change that has a lot of conflict (think therapists, counselors, social workers, etc.)

Using the FFM as a comparison for what type is more likely to engage in conflict or avoid it is perfectly acceptable. I don't think sensors (as BlueWing stated) are more likely to engage in conflict. Actually, I see ISJs more often than not becoming doormats in many situations because of their desire to maintain order which often preempts their personal desires and wishes. From the studies that I'm reading about correlations between MBTI, FFM, and the openness factor is people that score higher in openness also tend to have higher neurotic traits. High neuroticism sabotages relationships and leads to maladaptive personality traits which could manifest in dealing with conflict in a healthy way. Healthily dealing with conflict doesn't mean avoiding it, it means developing strategies and coping mechanisms that help diffuse tensions within yourself and others.

 

[ptgatsby]

But Both N and A correlate to F. Research concludes F = N & A. Also, some people who score A-/N+ identify clearly with xxFx. For the rest, case of O+.

The correlation between N+ and F is very weak and the A+ to F is not quite strong enough to say F = N & A at all, unless there is a specific paper that I haven't seen that shows something other than the direct correlation.

This is true even if you strip the descriptors down and compare them - there isn't that much core overlap and even some anti-correlated traits between F and A+. There is nearly no overlap between N+ and F at that level.

 

[Maverick]

This is a very good explanation. I agree with Maverick's and pt's descriptions of conflict and NFs.

I've always had a problem with the conflict avoidant parts of NF description. I don't seek out conflict, I try to avoid it, but I'm not afraid of it and it's not like I don't start conflict myself if I think that it will bring about greater harmony. Ignoring an issue doesn't make it go away, you sometimes have to confront it and deal with it. I'm probably A+/N+ in your model (minus the dependent part ). If you look at the ENF descriptions, I don't see how having the type of personality that "inspires world changing visions " and "encourages individual growth and potential" could possibly avoid the conflict that inevitably comes along with such things. The theme that comes with these personalities is change and we know how resistant to change most people are. Well, I guess I should clarify, there are certain types of change that people are more resistant to and ENFs (NFs generally) specialize in the type of personal change that has a lot of conflict (think therapists, counselors, social workers, etc.)

Using the FFM as a comparison for what type is more likely to engage in conflict or avoid it is perfectly acceptable. I don't think sensors (as BlueWing stated) are more likely to engage in conflict. Actually, I see ISJs more often than not becoming doormats in many situations because of their desire to maintain order which often preempts their personal desires and wishes. From the studies that I'm reading about correlations between MBTI, FFM, and the openness factor is people that score higher in openness also tend to have higher neurotic traits. High neuroticism sabotages relationships and leads to maladaptive personality traits which could manifest in dealing with conflict in a healthy way. Healthily dealing with conflict doesn't mean avoiding it, it means developing strategies and coping mechanisms that help diffuse tensions within yourself and others.

You've got some very good points there. I agree with what you have said.

The correlation between N+ and F is very weak and the A+ to F is not quite strong enough to say F = N & A at all, unless there is a specific paper that I haven't seen that shows something other than the direct correlation.

This is true even if you strip the descriptors down and compare them - there isn't that much core overlap and even some anti-correlated traits between F and A+. There is nearly no overlap between N+ and F at that level.

Yes, the relationship is pretty weak between A and F, and less so between N and F. However, there is still a relationship. But your point is valid, and the correspondance of F in the FFM is meagre.

 

[targobelle]

they are discussing NF's like we're not even present.....

it's an annoyance... I feel like a child who's parents believe they should be seen and not heard :steam:

 

[Varelse]

they are discussing NF's like we're not even present.....

it's an annoyance... I feel like a child who's parents believe they should be seen and not heard :steam:

Well, what do you think would be the best approach for discussing this?

 

[targobelle]

Well, what do you think would be the best approach for discussing this?

well since it was asked of NF's being the question was directed at us, it would have been nice if they actually listened to the thoughts and advice given. Yet they stepped over it like it wasn't even there and disregarded it. I mean if you want to discuss why NF's are as they are from say a factual point of view then fine discuss it in MBTI.

 

[heart]

they are discussing NF's like we're not even present.....

it's an annoyance... I feel like a child who's parents believe they should be seen and not heard :steam:

Oh well, every type ends up being discussed in this manner.

 

[ptgatsby]

well since it was asked of NF's being the question was directed at us, it would have been nice if they actually listened to the thoughts and advice given. Yet they stepped over it like it wasn't even there and disregarded it. I mean if you want to discuss why NF's are as they are from say a factual point of view then fine discuss it in MBTI.

To be fair, the first few NF answers in here was that it doesn't exist. The discussion that followed was just about why the OP would get that impression... I don't think it was ignoring the NFs in the thread, only that the conversation drifted into a more lingo-ish view of what might explain the impression.

 

[heart]

I didn't deny that NF get into conflict. I said that I don't particularly enjoy conflict but I often feel compelled to assert my opinions.

 

[targobelle]

I didn't deny that NF get into conflict. I said that I don't particularly enjoy conflict but I often feel compelled to assert my opinions.

I too agree with this statement. And as a perfect example I have asserted myself here in this thread.

 

[indigo2020]

Conflicts tend to be more common among Sensors than intuitors because they often dont see the big picture and end up quibbling over minor discrepancies. NFs, being the most diplomatic tend to fair best at avoiding conflicts. They, especially INFPs, are very keenly aware of what is worth fighting for. So when they decide to fight, they fight big and stand out, and because they stand out so much, it begins to appear that by their nature they have a lot to do with conflict.

I actually agree with you on this.

 

[indigo2020]

That is what I would deem the conflicts as, if I had to pick. Otherwise, NFs will avoid confrontation. I can't begin to tell you how often I have to almost beg them to be nasty with me, just so I can understand what might be bothering them under the surface.

(I know with most INFPs I've known, they use such general terms and abstractions to avoid friction that I am not exactly sure what the problem is, and I have to basically play 20 Questions until they nod to me and say I figured out what has been bothering them.)

yes, yes, yes. I had to do this all the time with an INFP friend of mine as well as an ISFP roomate and my ISFJ step-mother (they seem to be very similar IMO). This does not happen quite as much with INFJ's, ENFP's, or ENFJ's. It also does not happen as much with any of the other types I have encountered.

 

[indigo2020]

This is funny. I will tell people flat out, honest, blunt what the problem is and I will still get the blank or amused look from them. I often feel like I am speaking a different language than they understand.

can you give us an example?