User Tag List

First 12345 Last

Results 21 to 30 of 113

  1. #21
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    4,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    That makes sense. The correspondance between the I/E, S/N and P/J MBTI dimensions and the FFM factors is clearer than for F/T. I think A+/N- would represent the NF as decribed by Keirsey. However, there are also A+/N+ and A-/N+ NF's, the latter seeming more prone to starting conflicts.
    I think it's safe to say that in general, A+ will start less conflict than A-, although A+ may be as much of a source of conflict, assuming that there are equal A+ and A- actors involved. But I think it is equally safe to say that N+ will be responsible for starting, carrying on and escalating conflict, whereas N- will be more likely to diffuse and avoid conflict, namely by avoiding escalation and emotions.

    So, while F/T might not correlate directly to N+/N-, by virtue that F's are ~some 70% females, and females are heavily shifted towards N+, it can probably be loosely assumed that Fs from MBTI (by virtue of distribution) are more likely to escalate conflict, take things personally and get emotionally involved.

    All of this happens regardless of the descriptors used to measure F in MBTI, which is why it seems so unusual. And really, it has no bearing on MBTI, it'd be more accurate to say the reverse - women are generally more emotionally reactive, most women test as F, as a result, more Fs are reactive if you normally distribute the reactivity.

  2. #22
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w6 so/sx
    Posts
    3,467

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I wonder how you came to this conclusion - any evidence? I mean, is it based around Beren's social styles? TKI inventories? Did Jung or Myers say anything about this?

    Cause in almost every case of mapping type to conflict styles, the nature of interactions/conflict is not based around N/S at all... it is historically based across two dimensions - people and tasks (namely, F/T and J/P)... The degree of conflict has been found along the lines of neuroticism and depending on the conflict being talked about, extroversion... Leaving, ironically, only the N/S divide as the only one that has never been deemed relevent.

    Tests like Disc and Firo... they are based around the managerial grid model, just as social styles and nearly every conflict measurement system out there does... So just to sum up - they all use some form of F/T and J/P, some more modern ones will use neuroticism. Almost all use a gradient or quantrant approach, meaning no absolutes. And I don't know of any conflict inventories that use N/S/Openess/etc.

    I could explain to you how I came to those conclusions. But thats perhaps more N that you want to go into. It has nothing to do with concrete observations or who said what...just pure Intuitive Systemizing..
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  3. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Posts
    880

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I think it's safe to say that in general, A+ will start less conflict than A-, although A+ may be as much of a source of conflict, assuming that there are equal A+ and A- actors involved. But I think it is equally safe to say that N+ will be responsible for starting, carrying on and escalating conflict, whereas N- will be more likely to diffuse and avoid conflict, namely by avoiding escalation and emotions.

    So, while F/T might not correlate directly to N+/N-, by virtue that F's are ~some 70% females, and females are heavily shifted towards N+, it can probably be loosely assumed that Fs from MBTI (by virtue of distribution) are more likely to escalate conflict, take things personally and get emotionally involved.

    All of this happens regardless of the descriptors used to measure F in MBTI, which is why it seems so unusual. And really, it has no bearing on MBTI, it'd be more accurate to say the reverse - women are generally more emotionally reactive, most women test as F, as a result, more Fs are reactive if you normally distribute the reactivity.
    You've got a point. The main problem is that MBTI is lacking in its ability to describe the spectrum of human personality. N+ will probably identify with F over T, yet will possess traits that contradict typical xxFx descriptions. Various measures of emotional intelligence, social skills, or emotional coping skills correlate strongly, negatively, with big five N. Big five N is also related to less spouse satisfaction, more psychological disorders, more workplace conflict, ...

    The NF temperament may be subdivided in 3 types depending on A/N combination:

    1) A+/N- : The typical NF description, imo. It's safe to say that these people not only avoid conflict, but are slower to perceive slights, tend to see the good in others, trust others, are altruistic, interpret actions more positively, are self-confident, feel good about themselves, are slow to anger, and should possess more emotional and social coping skills (i.e. EIQ negative correlation with N). The stable concern about others would probably create a self-fulfilling prophecy that would make others more trustworthy. Statistically, though, I would predict that this type is under-represented.

    2) A+/N+ : This type will probably build up more anger inside, be more depressed, be more anxious, be quick to try to resolve disagreement, be more dependent, ... all the while still believing people have good intentions and being altruistic. I think this type would be fairly common.

    3) A-/N+ : I think this type may think they are borderline T if they overidentify with A-. Disagreeableness combined with Neuroticism makes this type quick to perceive slights, distrustful of others and even paranoid, pretentious, manipulative, quick to anger, anxious, self-conscious, with low self-esteem, self-absorbed and depressed. This type will probably be anti-authority (A-) in an unstable way (N+) and have difficulty obeying authority figures. It's probably safe to say that the manipulativeness associated with A- combined with N+ will make for an individual that is apt at playing many relationship games. I think this type is less frequent but may more easily have an interest in typology as A-/N+ typically has identity problems.

  4. #24
    ~*taaa raaa raaa boom*~ targobelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    enfp
    Posts
    2,585

    Default

    Listen to you non NF's rationalize the mind of an NF

    Pass over the information that you have received and concentrated on the knowledge and the logical explanation

    you might as well take your discussion out of here and it appears that you did not want an answer from one that lives with the NF on a daily basis.

    Yes I am miffed by it, and not to cause conflict but to prove a point, you asked NF's and then disregarded their answers (mine included) and then still had the gall to wonder why conflict follows us. I personally feel like my answer wasn't good enough for you and it was over looked, over looked for something that made sense to you.

    Bravo you answered your own question!
    ~t ...in need of hugs please...
    Jung Test Results
    Extroverted (E) 63.16% Intuitive (N) 60.53% Feeling (F) 84.38% Perceiving (P) 87.1% ~Your type is: ENFP

  5. #25
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    4,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    I could explain to you how I came to those conclusions. But thats perhaps more N that you want to go into. It has nothing to do with concrete observations or who said what...just pure Intuitive Systemizing..
    So no... Just checking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    You've got a point. The main problem is that MBTI is lacking in its ability to describe the spectrum of human personality. N+ will probably identify with F over T, yet will possess traits that contradict typical xxFx descriptions. Various measures of emotional intelligence, social skills, or emotional coping skills correlate strongly, negatively, with big five N. Big five N is also related to less spouse satisfaction, more psychological disorders, more workplace conflict, ...
    Right... it really has very little to do with being an NF. What you are seeing is a person, and that person is generally neurotic, which causes the outbursts of conflict. It just so happens they also tend to test F (not even NF - but you may notice NFs more because Ns are also a minority, meaning selective bias - you notice it more), or you perceive them as F. I think if you measure them yourself, seperating N+ and A+ would show that A+ are distinctly conflict avoidant/cooperative, but the degree of conflict caused would be linked to N+. As such, you could see a lot of A+/N+ being passive aggressive, etc. or inciting conflict in group settings, then trying to make it up (a rather vicious circle of unpredictable behaviour).

    Statistically, though, I would predict that this type is under-represented.
    If we assume that F = A+, then it is surely underpresented. However, F was based upon "values" and "personal" before the factor analysis in Step II. That means that there is a distinct seperation between the "Empathy" stuff from FFM and the current MBTI tests... So in a way, F does not likely mean A+ except for those that have used a more modern version of the test (which many web tests are not). Not to mention A+ to F is pretty weak anyway, for something that should be describing the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by targo View Post
    Listen to you non NF's rationalize the mind of an NF
    Just behaviour. I think the underlying message is that the conflict really has very little to do with NFs at all...

  6. #26
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Well, I dislike conflict because it makes me feel threatened, and carries the risk of being hated. If something makes me angry enough to engage in a conflict, however, I would probably be especially vicious. The things that make me especially angry are usually of a personal nature, such as a direct character attack, or something potentially harmful to others. That's why the conflict, when it occurs, is usually of a more personal nature.

  7. #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Posts
    880

    Default

    It just so happens they also tend to test F (not even NF - but you may notice NFs more because Ns are also a minority, meaning selective bias - you notice it more), or you perceive them as F.
    If we assume that F = A+, then it is surely underpresented. However, F was based upon "values" and "personal" before the factor analysis in Step II. That means that there is a distinct seperation between the "Empathy" stuff from FFM and the current MBTI tests... So in a way, F does not likely mean A+ except for those that have used a more modern version of the test (which many web tests are not). Not to mention A+ to F is pretty weak anyway, for something that should be describing the same thing.
    But Both N and A correlate to F. Research concludes F = N & A. Also, some people who score A-/N+ identify clearly with xxFx. For the rest, case of O+.

  8. #28
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Enneagram
    1w2
    Posts
    5,514

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    I could explain to you how I came to those conclusions. But thats perhaps more N that you want to go into. It has nothing to do with concrete observations or who said what...just pure Intuitive Systemizing..
    That's snotty and condescending. A nice way of getting out of explaining yourself. :rolli:

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    You've got a point. The main problem is that MBTI is lacking in its ability to describe the spectrum of human personality...
    This is a very good explanation. I agree with Maverick's and pt's descriptions of conflict and NFs.

    I've always had a problem with the conflict avoidant parts of NF description. I don't seek out conflict, I try to avoid it, but I'm not afraid of it and it's not like I don't start conflict myself if I think that it will bring about greater harmony. Ignoring an issue doesn't make it go away, you sometimes have to confront it and deal with it. I'm probably A+/N+ in your model (minus the dependent part ). If you look at the ENF descriptions, I don't see how having the type of personality that "inspires world changing visions " and "encourages individual growth and potential" could possibly avoid the conflict that inevitably comes along with such things. The theme that comes with these personalities is change and we know how resistant to change most people are. Well, I guess I should clarify, there are certain types of change that people are more resistant to and ENFs (NFs generally) specialize in the type of personal change that has a lot of conflict (think therapists, counselors, social workers, etc.)

    Using the FFM as a comparison for what type is more likely to engage in conflict or avoid it is perfectly acceptable. I don't think sensors (as BlueWing stated) are more likely to engage in conflict. Actually, I see ISJs more often than not becoming doormats in many situations because of their desire to maintain order which often preempts their personal desires and wishes. From the studies that I'm reading about correlations between MBTI, FFM, and the openness factor is people that score higher in openness also tend to have higher neurotic traits. High neuroticism sabotages relationships and leads to maladaptive personality traits which could manifest in dealing with conflict in a healthy way. Healthily dealing with conflict doesn't mean avoiding it, it means developing strategies and coping mechanisms that help diffuse tensions within yourself and others.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  9. #29
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    4,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    But Both N and A correlate to F. Research concludes F = N & A. Also, some people who score A-/N+ identify clearly with xxFx. For the rest, case of O+.
    The correlation between N+ and F is very weak and the A+ to F is not quite strong enough to say F = N & A at all, unless there is a specific paper that I haven't seen that shows something other than the direct correlation.

    This is true even if you strip the descriptors down and compare them - there isn't that much core overlap and even some anti-correlated traits between F and A+. There is nearly no overlap between N+ and F at that level.

  10. #30
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Posts
    880

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    This is a very good explanation. I agree with Maverick's and pt's descriptions of conflict and NFs.

    I've always had a problem with the conflict avoidant parts of NF description. I don't seek out conflict, I try to avoid it, but I'm not afraid of it and it's not like I don't start conflict myself if I think that it will bring about greater harmony. Ignoring an issue doesn't make it go away, you sometimes have to confront it and deal with it. I'm probably A+/N+ in your model (minus the dependent part ). If you look at the ENF descriptions, I don't see how having the type of personality that "inspires world changing visions " and "encourages individual growth and potential" could possibly avoid the conflict that inevitably comes along with such things. The theme that comes with these personalities is change and we know how resistant to change most people are. Well, I guess I should clarify, there are certain types of change that people are more resistant to and ENFs (NFs generally) specialize in the type of personal change that has a lot of conflict (think therapists, counselors, social workers, etc.)

    Using the FFM as a comparison for what type is more likely to engage in conflict or avoid it is perfectly acceptable. I don't think sensors (as BlueWing stated) are more likely to engage in conflict. Actually, I see ISJs more often than not becoming doormats in many situations because of their desire to maintain order which often preempts their personal desires and wishes. From the studies that I'm reading about correlations between MBTI, FFM, and the openness factor is people that score higher in openness also tend to have higher neurotic traits. High neuroticism sabotages relationships and leads to maladaptive personality traits which could manifest in dealing with conflict in a healthy way. Healthily dealing with conflict doesn't mean avoiding it, it means developing strategies and coping mechanisms that help diffuse tensions within yourself and others.
    You've got some very good points there. I agree with what you have said.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    The correlation between N+ and F is very weak and the A+ to F is not quite strong enough to say F = N & A at all, unless there is a specific paper that I haven't seen that shows something other than the direct correlation.

    This is true even if you strip the descriptors down and compare them - there isn't that much core overlap and even some anti-correlated traits between F and A+. There is nearly no overlap between N+ and F at that level.
    Yes, the relationship is pretty weak between A and F, and less so between N and F. However, there is still a relationship. But your point is valid, and the correspondance of F in the FFM is meagre.

Similar Threads

  1. [INFP] NFs and pride, conflict, attitude?
    By Cindyrella in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 12-27-2008, 07:23 AM
  2. [MBTItm] Dual NF/T Conflict and Paralysis
    By Eternue-MDL in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 12-08-2008, 06:02 PM
  3. [NF] NF(P): too-much expectations, yet little work?
    By niki in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: 12-05-2008, 02:12 AM
  4. [MBTItm] Analysis: The "Hate an NF" threads
    By proteanmix in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 04-29-2008, 08:21 AM
  5. [NF] Any NFs who didn't totally hate math?
    By prplchknz in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 11-15-2007, 04:30 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO