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  1. #11
    Senior Member Harlow_Jem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post

    I feel like you are judging male INFPs as being femenine, passive, off on the sidelines. I don't think it's wise to assume that all are like this, because I know I'm not any of those. But a lot of them are like that.
    I am definitely not doing that. My boyfriend is more feminine/passive than the average football-mongering, protein-shake-gobbling meathead but is still very masculine. What I was trying to say is that he's masculine enough to me but the fact that he is still easily affected by his feelings makes him feel sometimes like he isn't masculine enough to himself. But that's just him; he's probably that way because his mother is a crazy bitch who fucks with his head... maybe other INFP males have come to terms with themselves.

    "I have no need for good souls; an accomplice is what I want"--Sartre


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  2. #12
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harlow_Jem View Post
    Society tells us that the proper roles in a relationship are played out when the male is the manly man
    By definition, whatever the man does, is manly. Be it archetypal or otherwise.
    and the female is the less assertive, sensitive one. Which is why when a healthy INFP male and a healthy ENTJ female meet
    I'm still trying to figure out what "healthy" means when you people use it like this. I'm betting there is no consistent definition.

    it's absolute magic in a backwards way. The ENTJ female does not need a male who is more "masculine, aggressive" or whatever.
    Or "whatever?"

    That doesn't sound very convincing. Seems like if you're going to bash a stereotype, you ought to know where it begins and ends.
    Where's that ENTJ confidence?
    What she you needs want is someone to complement her your own traits and help her you ease into feeling comfortable with her your own, most likely repressed/rejected femininity.
    Edited for clarity. *

    I am, perhaps, out of date with the statistics, but what figures are you using to assess a standard [i.e. "most likely"] of rejected femininity among ENTJ females?

    Conversely, should that not mean that ENTJ males are quite the opposite? Or can we agree that femme/masculine traits are mutually exclusive with type?
    [quote]What she needs is the sensitive rational male. The INFP male is the sensitive, rational man.


    *As a matter of fact I noticed a bit of a trend. From my perspective, it appears as thought you have some kind of preoccupation with femininity. This is a personal stand rather than a typological stand.
    Isn't it?
    That's fine, but it's rather irresponsible to acclaim the INFP when it's really only your INFP who is necessarily like this.

    Give it a few weeks/months.
    You'll be itching for a strong he-man sooner than you think.
    we fukin won boys

  3. #13
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    What people are saying in here (everyone) has merit.

    So basically people have their opinions on relationships and know what they want. Take OneWithSoul for example, he wants an NF. Naturally he won't lean toward the NT-NF pairing. Then you have me, I want an XXTJ woman. I don't lean toward the NF-NF pairing. Everyone is different.

    Then you have what Nocap is saying (WHICH IS TRUE). What I got out of it is basically everything is relative, and that's true.

    So with the ENTJ-INFP matchup, it is indeed relative. But when it relates to you, it's a good pairing, and that's the purpose of this thread.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

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  4. #14
    Senior Member Harlow_Jem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocap View Post
    What makes me doubt it, besides the obvious fault in type relationship predictions is that everything I've seen Jem write depends on just what SW said -- confirmation bias.

    I haven't seen her much, but literally 100% of what I remember depends on that one-size-fits all perspective, and it's just plain wrong.

    Here's a tip [fact]: Neither Intuition nor Feeling are necessarily useful in helping an INFJ know where and ENTP is 'coming from' (whatever that means) nor does Thinking really make such a great accomplice for the ENTP in determining the INFJs feelings.

    It's a fucking joke.
    I heard one guy saying that INTPs should only be with INTPs and ISTJs should only be with ISTJs and so on. He even said "why do you think so many divorces take place?" therein blaming 100% of divorces on type, rather than y'know... what the person's type might cause them to do.
    Well the fact that I am writing from confirmation bias is a big NO SHIT. Why would I write about something that is completely foreign to me? I'm not a novelist, I'm merely stating my own observations and opinions about things. I acknowledge that my writing style does sound didactic and preachy at times but that doesn't mean I'm not open to opposition in opinion or that I'm ready to punch down the first person who disagrees with me.

    That's just the exact point I'm trying to make. I hear alot of opinions and observations made by ISTPs and my first thoughts are usually, "what fcking planet are these people from?" But obviously once I realize that resistance to accepting the way they form their thoughts, etc is worthless as it just closes my mind towards what is perceived as a truth to them, then I can simply learn to better understand how they think/feel about things.

    There are many who agree with my so called "one-size-fits-all perspectives." They're written for people who understand me and think like me and to enlighten people who don't think like us to see how we think. If you think they're 100% wrong then obviously you're free to disagree and move on with your own shit.

    "I have no need for good souls; an accomplice is what I want"--Sartre


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  5. #15
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    Then you have what Nocap is saying (WHICH IS TRUE). What I got out of it is basically everything is relative, and that's true.
    Slow down there buccaroo. I didn't say that so explicitly.
    It might not be relative. And if it is steady, I doubt very seriously that we've figured out the formula.
    we fukin won boys

  6. #16
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harlow_Jem View Post
    Well the fact that I am writing from confirmation bias is a big NO SHIT. Why would I write about something that is completely foreign to me?
    That's not what confirmation bias is about. If we could for a moment, let's step away from the extremes you're so drawn to.

    Actually, to begin with, it would be impossible for you to write about something completely foreign to you -- you wouldn't know the terminology... lol.
    Looking over that though, it's apparent that you're unfamiliar with the term.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia, the Almighty Goblet of Knowledge
    Confirmation bias
    In psychology and cognitive science, confirmation bias is a tendency to search for or interpret new information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions and to avoid information and interpretations which contradict prior beliefs. It is a type of cognitive bias and represents an error of inductive inference, or as a form of selection bias toward confirmation of the hypothesis under study or disconfirmation of an alternative hypothesis.

    I'm not a novelist, I'm merely stating my own observations and opinions about things. I acknowledge that my writing style does sound didactic and preachy at times but that doesn't mean I'm not open to opposition in opinion or that I'm ready to punch down the first person who disagrees with me.
    Well now you're just being reckless with your words.
    Er... I mean moreso than you were.

    [Ignoring the flagrant irony you displayed there -- y'know since you are kind of trying to 'punch me down' and I am in fact the first to actively disagree.]
    Please point out where I've accused you of not being open.

    Coup de Grace:
    What you posted were not observations -- it was a dogmatic formula, which, given the context, will be invariably misleading.
    After all, I do consider myself an expert typologist, and have invested a great lot of time and energy into ferrying the other members to heightened understanding, and when I see my work being undone, it's only rational for me to become a bit defensive.

    That's just the exact point I'm trying to make. I hear alot of opinions and observations made by ISTPs and my first thoughts are usually, "what fcking planet are these people from?" But obviously once I realize that resistance to accepting the way they form their thoughts, etc is worthless as it just closes my mind towards what is perceived as a truth to them, then I can simply learn to better understand how they think/feel about things.
    Calm down for a moment. This isn't an attack on your character.

    Hey -- I'm just posting my observations of you (and these actually are observations... literal concrete observations) so cut me [and yourself] a little slack.

    There are many who agree with my so called "one-size-fits-all perspectives." They're written for people who understand me and think like me and to enlighten people who don't think like us to see how we think. If you think they're 100% wrong then obviously you're free to disagree and move on with your own shit.
    Did I say it was 100% wrong? Again with the boolean misinterpretation.

    As a matter of fact, I've seen it go wrong.
    If you don't believe me, fine, but I guarantee you will find a situation wherein an INFP and an ENTJ don't get along in a relationship if you look hard enough.

    Ergo, your assertion is at best plausible. And indeed, it is plausible.
    I've also seen ENTJ and INFP work positively. Not forever, but it did work for a good long while.

    So indeed, it is plausible. But I mean come on... you can't really ask for anything more than that. Not with just a few inconclusive paragraphs.
    we fukin won boys

  7. #17
    Senior Member Harlow_Jem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocap View Post
    That's not what confirmation bias is about. If we could for a moment, let's step away from the extremes you're so drawn to.

    Actually, to begin with, it would be impossible for you to write about something completely foreign to you -- you wouldn't know the terminology... lol.
    Looking over that though, it's apparent that you're unfamiliar with the term.
    I do know what the confirmation bias is... how does what I say indicate otherwise? I was agreeing with you that I write objectively from a subjective perspective; the conclusions I come to are derived from and are affirmations of my preconceptions. Now you're simply pointing to random things and saying that I'm wrong and it's making you look like a petty ass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nocap View Post
    Well now you're just being reckless with your words.
    Er... I mean moreso than you were.

    [Ignoring the flagrant irony you displayed there -- y'know since you are kind of trying to 'punch me down' and I am in fact the first to actively disagree.]
    Please point out where I've accused you of not being open.
    Well since you said, "I haven't seen her much, but literally 100% of what I remember depends on that one-size-fits all perspective, and it's just plain wrong" it's obvious that you're discounting my whole philosophy without giving thought that I make legitimate points.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nocap View Post
    Coup de Grace:
    What you posted were not observations -- it was a dogmatic formula, which, given the context, will be invariably misleading.
    After all, I do consider myself an expert typologist, and have invested a great lot of time and energy into ferrying the other members to heightened understanding, and when I see my work being undone, it's only rational for me to become a bit defensive.

    Calm down for a moment. This isn't an attack on your character.
    If I was any calmer, I'd be dead. Perhaps you take my wording and imagine violent subtext underneath. I'm merely just arguing my side of the argument; it's just an ENTJ thing I suppose, to sound pugnacious when we're really not.

    It borders on hilarity that you consider yourself an expert typologist and are so vehement about me being wrong. Typology is the study of people by people; there's a subjectively quality at the basis when forming opinions about other types. If you consider what I say "undoing your work" then I can only come to the conclusion that you are so saturated in your own subjectivity that it renders you incapable of being objective enough to take into account my (and most likely the majority of other's) perspective of things. The title of my OP indicates that the thoughts in the OP are explicitly "from an ENTJ female perspective."

    Did I say every INFP is a perfect match with an ENTJ? No. Do I have to add a footnote of disclaimer at the bottom of every one of my posts that they're possibly misleading because they're my thoughts? That's a given. It's not your duty to protect the fragile impressionability of others. Let them think and learn for themselves and decide whether they themselves agree or not.

    "I have no need for good souls; an accomplice is what I want"--Sartre


    psychic changes are born in your heart, entertain.

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  8. #18
    Badoom~ Skyward's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harlow_Jem View Post
    I do know what the confirmation bias is... how does what I say indicate otherwise? I was agreeing with you that I write objectively from a subjective perspective; the conclusions I come to are derived from and are affirmations of my preconceptions. Now you're simply pointing to random things and saying that I'm wrong and it's making you look like a petty ass.

    Well since you said, "I haven't seen her much, but literally 100% of what I remember depends on that one-size-fits all perspective, and it's just plain wrong" it's obvious that you're discounting my whole philosophy without giving thought that I make legitimate points.

    If I was any calmer, I'd be dead. Perhaps you take my wording and imagine violent subtext underneath. I'm merely just arguing my side of the argument; it's just an ENTJ thing I suppose, to sound pugnacious when we're really not.

    It borders on hilarity that you consider yourself an expert typologist and are so vehement about me being wrong. Typology is the study of people by people; there's a subjectively quality at the basis when forming opinions about other types. If you consider what I say "undoing your work" then I can only come to the conclusion that you are so saturated in your own subjectivity that it renders you incapable of being objective enough to take into account my (and most likely the majority of other's) perspective of things. The title of my OP indicates that the thoughts in the OP are explicitly "from an ENTJ female perspective."

    Did I say every INFP is a perfect match with an ENTJ? No. Do I have to add a footnote of disclaimer at the bottom of every one of my posts that they're possibly misleading because they're my thoughts? That's a given. It's not your duty to protect the fragile impressionability of others. Let them think and learn for themselves and decide whether they themselves agree or not.
    QFT
    'Imperfection is beauty, madness is genius and its better to be absolutely ridiculous than absolutely boring.' - Marilyn Monroe

    This is who I am, escapist, paradise-seeker.
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    Anthropology Major out of Hamline University. St. Paul, Minnesota.

  9. #19
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    i think this thread (initial posting) makes perfect sense, if you are talking about a true dichotomy perceiver who has the functions NiFe. this is not my personal knowledge speaking, but i simply see how it perfectly matches theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by harlow jem
    he characteristics of the healthy ENTJ is basically what the INFP wants to have/cultivate in himself;
    this is where i can personally agree, and my healthy ENTJ i mean a theoretical ENTJ (the spirit i evoke when reading about the functions happens to be at least one side of my ideal uber self)

    but if you happen to talk about those who i interpret es FiNe "infp", then i am confused and inclined to listen to what OneWithSoul had to say. btw, i am sort of horrified by the idea of an relation with ENFJ. this is mostly theoretical, but i can see how my hyper adaptive Fe values would possibly survive the dominant Fe of an enfj. i would probably loose all selfrespect / trust in my judgements. it's competition in the same area. Te is a different area, from the one where i need freedom, so that could work out better.

  10. #20
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harlow_Jem View Post
    I do know what the confirmation bias is... how does what I say indicate otherwise? I was agreeing with you that I write objectively from a subjective perspective; the conclusions I come to are derived from and are affirmations of my preconceptions. Now you're simply pointing to random things and saying that I'm wrong and it's making you look like a petty ass.
    You're... not paying attention.

    Listen. Confirmation bias is when you search only for the things that support your conclusion, and put those in higher priority than those which don't support your idea.

    You did that. Come on now. It's game over -- you can't prove conclusively that INFP is even a good match, let alone ideal. Don't talk to me about writing objectively.
    What you wrote is absolutely subjective.

    Well since you said, "I haven't seen her much, but literally 100% of what I remember depends on that one-size-fits all perspective, and it's just plain wrong" it's obvious that you're discounting my whole philosophy without giving thought that I make legitimate points.
    I don't understand how seeing that you make the most common logical fallacy means that I've discounted your every point.

    Jeez you're putting words in my mouth now.


    If I was any calmer, I'd be dead. Perhaps you take my wording and imagine violent subtext underneath. I'm merely just arguing my side of the argument; it's just an ENTJ thing I suppose, to sound pugnacious when we're really not.
    This also has nothing to do with type. You might be able to excuse employing extroversion as a cause, but... not really.

    It borders on hilarity that you consider yourself an expert typologist and are so vehement about me being wrong. Typology is the study of people by people
    No typology is the study of types.
    there's a subjectively quality at the basis
    And here is where you're wrong. It's not subjective. The types are built off of a few perfectly distinguished elements. The structure is subjective, but those elements are not. I possess a profound understanding of those elements.
    Like found in a building, the structure requires a strong foundation.

    when forming opinions about other types. If you consider what I say "undoing your work" then I can only come to the conclusion that you are so saturated in your own subjectivity that it renders you incapable of being objective enough to take into account my (and most likely the majority of other's) perspective of things.
    That's the point -- it doesn't matter what other people say. Studying any object means that it's got nothing to do with perspective.

    If you're doing it right, Neo-Jungian Typology is an objective metric, not a series of floating nebulous ideas.


    The title of my OP indicates that the thoughts in the OP are explicitly "from an ENTJ female perspective."
    Right. It was personal.
    Which is fine, but then why do you propound this matchup as if it will work this way for any and all incarnations?
    Talk about your own experiences, not the would be INFP and ENTJ experiences.

    Since you didn't, what you said is potentially misleading.

    Did I say every INFP is a perfect match with an ENTJ? No.
    Not explicitly, but after hearing "The INFP" a dozen or so times, it's only natural to think that you're talking about all of them, and not just one in particular.
    Do I have to add a footnote of disclaimer at the bottom of every one of my posts that they're possibly misleading because they're my thoughts?
    No, actually, you can make it clear in your post (since you did say they were YOUR experiences) by mentioning the actual experiences. I saw none.
    All I saw were abstract references using "The" rather than "My".

    It's not your duty to protect the fragile impressionability of others. Let them think and learn for themselves and decide whether they themselves agree or not.
    How hypocritical can you get?

    At the same time it's not my responsibility to protect the other forum members, it's not you're responsibility to make sure I don't.

    Get off my case -- you're the one who screwed up.
    Just confess it, correct it, and move on.

    Talk about not being open...
    we fukin won boys

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