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  1. #31
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    It could simply be, as an INFP your friend gave too much to this person who may have taken and taken and taken without giving and the drain became too much and he felt the need for seperation for self preservation.
    I see what you are saying, Heart; but that was not how I perceived what he was doing.

    And this past week, I got something to compare it to: He told me that he put boundaries up on a close friendship that he felt was codependent and that he was giving far too much to, to the point of it being a bizarre sort of emotional affair. This sounds very much like what you are describing here. He did just exactly what you are describing. He felt he was being used by and enabling this other person's emotional dependency.

    (And the other person was surprised and hurt, but my friend felt he had to do it to survive and because it was morally unhealthy and wrong for him to keep going with things as they had been.) So thank you for explaining this. It makes a lot of sense in this other relationship that I just witnessed with him.

    But the other relationship was not that way; I very much got the impression (having talked to him a number of times about it) that he felt betrayed because this original person let him down. He believed in him and had told him the right things to do, and the other person had given him lip service, then quietly proceeded with their plans to leave. (Actually, I think the ESFP was inspired each time my friend talked to him, to the point of WANTING to try harder; but he had no discipline whatsoever to persist when my friend was not around and the empty longings overwhelmed him.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I see what you are saying, Heart; but that was not how I perceived what he was doing.

    And this past week, I got something to compare it to: He told me that he put boundaries up on a close friendship that he felt was codependent and that he was giving far too much to, to the point of it being a bizarre sort of emotional affair. This sounds very much like what you are describing here. He did just exactly what you are describing. He felt he was being used by and enabling this other person's emotional dependency.

    (And the other person was surprised and hurt, but my friend felt he had to do it to survive and because it was morally unhealthy and wrong for him to keep going with things as they had been.) So thank you for explaining this. It makes a lot of sense in this other relationship that I just witnessed with him.
    In my experiences, I have tried to talk with those who are draining me and explain exactly what behaviors and what I need in return. The persons involved almost always respond with "I cannot understand what you mean.", "We do what we want, when we want, why can't you just accept us that way." (on boundary violations), or just humor.

    I give a second revisit to the issue and try to explain as clearly as humanly possible. Promises are made to try and see my way but continued boundary violation, continued pushing at me when I cannot tolerate it, continued belittling of my feelings, opinions, time and values etc.

    Then I start easing away from the relationship, I almost always get a shocked reaction. Some people seem to be so wrapped up in their own fantasy bond of what is going on that they won't see my side of the issue. They seem to minimize the strength with which I am making my point, they don't take me seriously.

    I am only human. I get burned out with such people.

    But the other relationship was not that way; I very much got the impression (having talked to him a number of times about it) that he felt betrayed because this original person let him down. He believed in him and had told him the right things to do, and the other person had given him lip service, then quietly proceeded with their plans to leave. (Actually, I think the ESFP was inspired each time my friend talked to him, to the point of WANTING to try harder; but he had no discipline whatsoever to persist when my friend was not around and the empty longings overwhelmed him.)
    This still must have been terribly draining. To give of yourself sincerely over and over like that to someone who says they "want" to change, but who didn't really seem to benefit from it. He gave and gave and in the end it did not matter, I can see how that would burn him out on the ESFP.

    Hopefully your INFP friend will learn that people do not change from without, but from their own internal will. We can guide people by our example but we really cannot force changes in them by holding their hands like this. The most we can do is decide who we let into our lives and how far we let them in.

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    They are free to do as they wish. Just as I am.



    They chose to put momentary pleasure for themselves over long term unhappiness for others. I cannot help but take a second look at a person willing to do that. It reveals a very mercenary type of person. Perhaps I am just a means to an end for that person as well, some goal they have that I don't know about.
    It reveals they can make mistakes, but I guess we just have to agree to disagree at this point.

    It would take a long time for them to prove to me that they weren't a dishonest person at the core if they did something like that. I am just as free to do that as they are over any of their own actions. If you say I cannot, then you are being just as "moralistic" towards me as you accuse me of being towards them.
    I didn't say you are a moralistic person. I was answering to a hypothetical situation, it was not personally aimed at you, and I have not enough information about you to state something like that. We have interacted very little so far. If you want my opinion about you so far, I can certainly give you that and I can promise I won't sugar coat it, but my previous statement had nothing to do with you, but with my general views on the subject.

    I once was friends with a person whom I found out was shoplifting for the sheer thrill of it; I felt the same way towards her. I could not trust her the same as I had before having learned what she was capable of. If she would steal from a store, why not from me?
    I once had a friend that spread gossip about me, not real things, just made up things, because she was mad. She is still a friend (not a close one), but I could never trust her anymore after that. I could never get back to the same level of trust. What I'm talking about its something different, she reacted out of anger, she lost sight of the impact her actions would have on me. I was seriously pissed, but hey, to label her a "bad person," I would have to forget all the good things she actually did to me until the fatidic incident. What I'm saying is that one screw up or one big screw up (like the situation we were talking about) doesn't make the person worthless. I know people that cheated and regretted and didn't do that again. I know people that cheated and didn't regretted and did it again. I'm just saying that your initial statement

    Quote Originally Posted by heart
    If a friend will lie to his wife and family about an affair, he will someday lie too YOU.
    Does not follow. If a friend lied to his family, it doesn't mean he/she will lie to me or that he/she will be forever a compulsive liar.

  4. #34
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capitu View Post
    Does not follow. If a friend lied to his family, it doesn't mean he/she will lie to me or that he/she will be forever a compulsive liar.
    Uh huh. Yes, if someone can lie in one situation, perhaps this means the possibility exists more for them to lie in other situations.

    But I find the motivation for lying more important here. That is where the pattern usually is. Some people will be entirely truthful in particular situations and feel the temptation to lie only in others. There are many reasons for someone to lie or not tell the complete truth in a particular situation, and it doesn't nearly always carry over.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capitu View Post
    It reveals they can make mistakes, but I guess we just have to agree to disagree at this point.
    It depends on whether it was a mistake or a calculated decision to act as one wished to act.


    I once had a friend that spread gossip about me, not real things, just made up things, because she was mad. She is still a friend (not a close one), but I could never trust her anymore after that. I could never get back to the same level of trust. What I'm talking about its something different, she reacted out of anger, she lost sight of the impact her actions would have on me. I was seriously pissed, but hey, to label her a "bad person," I would have to forget all the good things she actually did to me until the fatidic incident.
    The label "bad" is a little too broad brush and vague for me. Certainly her actions proved that either she cannot control her own anger or that she is a cold revenge seeker. She has no qualms about spreading lies to suit her agenda. Certainly everyone who knows her and knows she did this would be wise to consider this about her before trusting her too well. Why should they assume they have some special charm that prevents her from raging on them in a similar fashion?



    What I'm saying is that one screw up or one big screw up (like the situation we were talking about) doesn't make the person worthless. I know people that cheated and regretted and didn't do that again. I know people that cheated and didn't regretted and did it again. I'm just saying that your initial statement
    People who make mistakes and are sorry can certainly re-prove themselves worthy of trust but they generally earn that trust back.



    Does not follow. If a friend lied to his family, it doesn't mean he/she will lie to me or that he/she will be forever a compulsive liar.

    It does show a willingness in them to rationalize lying to meet their whims and desires to solve interpersonal difficulties. Why should any of their other relationships be immune to this?

  6. #36
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    If a person lies about something very important, we have to investigate the matter further to see if they lack the virtue of honesty. If we find out that they do, than the next question to ask is, to what degree?

    If they have enough honesty in their essence to at least be honest with us, and honest enough to make their motives in the relationship clear and their values, there shouldnt be a problem continuing. In this respect, Capitu's claim that if we have already declared one as our friend, we should tolerate all of their defects has much merit. (of course, provided that we really know about al of their defects)

    To recapitulate, we dont terminate them because we have discovered that they lied about something important, but only if upon further inquiry into their character we discover that they are so dishonest, that we now dont have any reason to believe that what we have envisaged them to be in the past is true. Or what we cant expect of them in the future..in short..we dont know who we are dealing with..

    It is true if they are dishonest to those who are dear to them it is highly likely that they dont have enough honesty in them for us to know what they are like at all, but this is only a high correlation and not a direct connection..therefore immediate dismissal is not satisfactory and can only be warranted if further inquiry has shown for that to be the case..

    But in the scenario presented, we dont know if the ESFP really did lie to those who are dear to him in as cold-blooded of a fashion as it was made out to be..perhaps there were circumstances that rendered his relationship with his wife unsatisfactory and he was lying not for the sake of appeasing his whims..but perhaps because he did not know how to handle the situation properly or for the sake of defending himself..again..this furthermore stresses the necessity for a profound and thorough inquiry into the nature of his character. In light of this, immediate dismissal because of one act of major deceit seems hardly tenable because the air of 'majorness', could be merely ostensible, yet at the essence it may well be much less grave.

    Now..let me make it clear..I hate to get personally involved in such matters no less than I hate to make value judgments..I am not trying to tell anyone how they should have emoted or what ought to feel right..all I am saying is..first think things through than act.never the other way around....First make sure that you really know that the person isnt even honest enough for you to know what they are like or what to expect from them..dont just assume that you know this about them only because they did something that makes them seem dishonest to such a high degree from far out..
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  7. #37
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    The main thing I was saying was that I would feel a certain question about their honesty overall after finding out. I am not saying that I would necessarily drop them as a friend.

    I still do think there is a possiblity there was more to the INFP dropping the ESFP friend than just the lying about the affair. Either that the friendship had burned the INFP out with all the fixing and the ESFP coming for support and advice OR that something more had occured between them personally at the same time that really broke the camel's back and that it is something they don't feel at liberty to speak of.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Now..let me make it clear..I hate to get personally involved in such matters no less than I hate to make value judgments..I am not trying to tell anyone how they should have emoted or what ought to feel right..all I am saying is..first think things through than act.never the other way around....First make sure that you really know that the person isnt even honest enough for you to know what they are like or what to expect from them..dont just assume that you know this about them only because they did something that makes them seem dishonest to such a high degree from far out..

    Well, I personally tend to first feel things intensely, take that deep in, process it, think it out, agonize over it, think it out again...get sudden intution, think about that...then if it is something affecting/concerning someone close to me, talk to them about it all, get their take on it and see their reactions... then go through the whole process again and then act. Then spend some time agonzing over having taken action.

    I guess part of the issue is that I assume the INFP did this and based his actions on the results.

    There is something in me that just sort of reacts badly to the notion that if someone is a friend or loved one that nothing they can do should be able to break the relationship and that we must always accept them just as they are, no matter the hurt or cost to us. I felt some empathy for the INFP being judged for breaking the friendship that by the short account sounded extremely draining for him.

    I have seen people take this right down to abuse, thieft, murder, if your family member or friend commits cold blooded murder beyond a doubt of guilt...no matter you stand by them. As person who has suffered under the actions of others in the past, I just cannot agree with this.

  9. #39
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I still do think there is a possibility there was more to the INFP dropping the ESFP friend than just the lying about the affair. Either that the friendship had burned the INFP out with all the fixing and the ESFP coming for support and advice OR that something more had occurred between them personally at the same time that really broke the camel's back and that it is something they don't feel at liberty to speak of.
    I don't.

    It doesn't fit either of their behavior, personalities, comments to me, and whatever. (And the ESFP could not keep a confidence to save his life.)

    It was very much a one-sided mentor/student relationship. They were so different as individuals, and the ESFP so crude, that the INFP would not even have spent so much time with the ESFP if he hadn't considered him a "fixer-upper" because they were in the same circles in church. (Oh, he was doing it graciously, because he cared about people and wanted to help this person... but I always saw it as an "more mature religious person" trying to guide a more immature one.)

    When the ESFP left on his wife's birthday right after Christmas, it messed up the INFP for weeks and months afterwards, and he wouldn't talk to the ESFP when he'd run across him because he felt the ESFP was not truly repentant for his behavior and he felt he also had to take a "moral stance" on the issue and thus refuse to talk to him. But it was very much a personal and religious failure on the ESFP's part to just leave (and especially without even telling the INFP directly or "saying goodbye" -- he just DISAPPPEARED), and it was taken very personally.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #40
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    It sounds like the INFP and the ESFP burned each other out and that the INFP could do with stronger boundaries with folks. How old is the INFP? (If that is not too personal to ask?)

    ETA. Did the ESFP ask for all this help, or did the INFP impose it on him?

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