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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Speaking just for myself, I don't care what the "audience" thinks of my beliefs and ideas. My ideas are for myself, as goals for myself to strive for. If people don't cheer their approval for me, that's fine. If people are turned off to me and don't want to be by buddy, that's fine too.

    I really don't care if I am "pleasing" others with my viewpoints. That's not my goal in life. Flattery in fact is something that can knock a person off their balance in trying to find the only thing that really matters, their own voice of conscience.

    I don't consider the way the topic slid as an example so much of ideals, but instead an example of the ways that a person may chose to protect themselves against others whose actions may not always be trustworthy. The OP mentioned people who had hurt her in her life. I assume that this was signifigant and long lasting patterns in people because she doesn't strike me as the sort who just flakes on people, from the things she says.

    I don't think we're required to solve the problems of those who hurt us by allowing ourselves to be their whipping child over and over. I think a person can be free to say enough is enough and move on at some point without having it shoved back at them as some "proof" that they aren't allowed their own ideals about life or that they are hypocrties.

    A healthy self interst is vital to living a truth in life. We're brainwashed in this society that we cannot be self protective or selfish in healthy ways. It is all hogwash.
    I'm fine with everything you're saying here, Heart.

    In essence, the OP asked if INFPs regularly end up as "lovers of humanity" who are alone and don't seem to get along well with humans.

    I responded in the affirmative. Then I provided a window on the "objective" psychological process leading to this state of affairs (as I conceptualize it). You are now providing a window on the interior or "subjective" rationalizations used to arrive at the same end.

    I don't see a conflict here. The "objective" and the "subjective" are two sides to the same coin. Your input is quite useful in that it fills out the picture by providing the interior monologue which accompanies the psychological process.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I think a person can be free to say enough is enough and move on at some point without having it shoved back at them as some "proof" that they aren't allowed their own ideals about life or that they are hypocrties.
    BTW, I just want to clarify that I'm not allowing or disallowing anything. People can do what they want and end up wherever they want. I was just explaining the process as I see it.

    Nor am I calling anyone a hypocrite (other than noting the obvious paradox of "lovers of humanity" ending up without any humans in their life). I take it for granted that INFPs who follow this process and end up alone are sincere in their motivations. If they end up in a paradoxical situation, it's because of the paradoxical nature of ideals and the solipsist tendencies of idealists, not because of any hypocrisy on the individual's part.

    By the way, FWIW, I've chucked lots of people out of my own life. I tend to think of acquaintances and friends as fairly disposable. But these days I tend to do it more for reasons of moving on to a new stage in life and achieving new personal goals--for example, withdrawing from old sedentary social circles in order to get more exercise and spend more time dancing with my wife. I don't tend to feel that the old friends were abusing me in some fashion, and I don't feel (like the OP explains) that I need to keep humans at bay in order to love humanity. In fact, I usually build new relationships to replace the old discarded ones once I've achieved my goals.

    There was a time when I thought more like the OP. But nowadays I think there's benefit in socializing for its own sake, and contrary to the philosophy of the OP I make a deliberate effort to keep other humans directly and immediately in my life at all times.

    Oh well, thanks for your good input as always, Heart. I think I'll probably drop the subject here. The deeper one digs, the more speculative things get (especially for an amateur like me).

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mempy View Post
    Jesus, that was a long post. It was good though, it was well written.
    Thanks, Mempy. You're a sweetheart.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post


    Nor am I calling anyone a hypocrite (other than noting the obvious paradox of "lovers of humanity" ending up without any humans in their life). I take it for granted that INFPs who follow this process and end up alone are sincere in their motivations. If they end up in a paradoxical situation, it's because of the paradoxical nature of ideals and the solipsist tendencies of idealists, not because of any hypocrisy on the individual's part.

    By the way, FWIW, I've chucked lots of people out of my own life. I tend to think of acquaintances and friends as fairly disposable. But these days I tend to do it more for reasons of moving on to a new stage in life and achieving new personal goals--for example, withdrawing from old sedentary social circles in order to get more exercise and spend more time dancing with my wife. I don't tend to feel that the old friends were abusing me in some fashion, and I don't feel (like the OP explains) that I need to keep humans at bay in order to love humanity. In fact, I usually build new relationships to replace the old discarded ones once I've achieved my goals.

    There was a time when I thought more like the OP. But nowadays I think there's benefit in socializing for its own sake, and contrary to the philosophy of the OP I make a deliberate effort to keep other humans directly and immediately in my life at all times....
    I am very selective of the people I bring into my private circle but once they are there, they are my friends unless they do something really counter to my values or are hurtful to me. I don't see how this is less loving of humanity than using friendship to meet a goal.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    . In fact, I usually build new relationships to replace the old discarded ones once I've achieved my goals.

    ).
    Friendships are means to an end of achieving your goals? When your goals are achieved, your friends are not of any utility anymore and you dispense with them?

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Thanks, Mempy. You're a sweetheart.

    I could have sworn you said the same thing to Zhash, almost in exact same wording in response to a compliment she gave you just as seemingly frivolous as this one.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I am very selective of the people I bring into my private circle but once they are there, they are my friends unless they do something really counter to my values or are hurtful to me. I don't see how this is less loving of humanity than using friendship to meet a goal.
    I agree. I was talking about social circles in the previous instances. Close personal friendships tend to be maintained more permanently, until one of us moves out of the area (I don't do correspondence well). And like Jennifer, I tend to show friends a lot of latitude about personal failings; I don't see friends as being abusive to me simply by not living up to my standards.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Friendships are means to an end of achieving your goals? When your goals are achieved, your friends are not of any utility any more and you dispense with them?
    No, I meant that social circles may keep me from achieving personal goals. I'll dispense with them under those circumstances and then rebuild new social circles in another environment.

    For example, for years my wife and I attended a Friday night gathering with dinner and drinks. But eventually we decided that the activity was too sedentary, so we quit attending and starting going dancing instead. In fact, we tried to lure along some of our friends from the Friday night gathering to come dancing with us, but the attempt was mostly unsuccessful. End result: We dropped out of that dinner-and-drink social circle entirely.

    Meantime, since we've been dancing, we've become acquainted with a new social set in the dancing crowd. Hence, having achieved our goal of switching to a new activity, we're building new friendships to match our new activities.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    I could have sworn you said the same thing to Zhash, almost in exact same wording in response to a compliment she gave you just as seemingly frivolous as this one.
    I guess I'm showing my age or my background or something. In my generation or set or whatever, "you're a sweetheart" can be a light-hearted response to a compliment. It means, basically, "That was nice of you to say so."

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Breaking the marriage vow and lying about it is one of the bigger lies that people tell in life. It is no white lie. When people get married, they vow with everything dear to them in their lives, their very souls, that they will be honest and faithful with this person and they can't keep that promise? Why as a friend to whom no such vows were exchanged should I doubt that they could do lie to me or hurt me if it became necessary to fit some whim or desire they had?

    It is a clue as to how they solve their conflicts when life gets hard. Cheating and shopping the meat market while your spouse sits at home thinking everything is OK is a pretty low thing to do. There is no reason why an adult person cannot try marriage counseling and then if that does not work or the spouse does not agree to go, then seperation and letting the spouse know that you will now be entering the dating world is upfront way to handle an unsatisfying marriage relationship. It is just not fair to the other party to do otherwise.

    It would indeed depend on the situation, but what I am saying is I would never be able to trust that person completely. They would have a lot of proving themselves back to me, but then again maybe they don't care either and that is fine too. No one is forced to be a friend of anyone in this world and those who want to lie and cheat and hurt others with impunity will find many people willing to befriend them.
    If they are my friend, I take them with warts and all. Any friend that imposes their a moralistic view on other people, it's not friend, it's a straight-jacket.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I am not saying that I would necessarily drop a friend for this, but I would never look at them the same again. Many people have been abused as children but not all of them take that pain into their adult lives and create hurt and pain for others.
    Of course you are right. The past is not really an excuse. But I do see how opportunity and personal psychological composition and intelligence/self-awareness and all of these things add up in someone, to give me an idea about what is "reasonable" for them... and it would have been shocking if this person had gotten over those events. The events were simply horrific, the person isn't very bright, not naturally self-aware or introspective, fearful, had no opportunity or relationship that would have forced him to change, and so forth... Realistically, it was a wonder he stayed with his family as long as he did; and I think he ONLY did it because he was so weak emotionally that he was codependent and fearful.

    I cannot just look at what some other people have been able to do in a similar situation, because some of them are different personality-wise or have had far more resources to deal with the pain. This person realistically had no personal or social resources that would have allowed him to mature. The few resources he had were ones he couldn't even understand well.

    Is it all possible that you don't know all the facts between the INFP and the friend?
    Well, it is always possible... After all, how would I know?

    But the INFP and I always talk on a very deep personal level and have talked for years; the ESFP meanwhile avoided any deep conversation, and mental pursuits were not his strong suit at all. Odds are very very slim that there is something about that relationship that my friend has not told me, because I am one of his biggest confidantes. He tells me things he won't tell anyone else, because he knows that I understand him and also will not simply judge him.

    I very much got the idea that the INFP was considering this person his "pet project" and investing a lot of time and energy into him to keep the ESFP's life and marriage together, and that he took it very personally when that effort failed. He also has some rough spots from his own childhood, where he was the "fixer" of everyone else's relationships among other things.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capitu View Post
    If they are my friend, I take them with warts and all. Any friend that imposes their a moralistic view on other people, it's not friend, it's a straight-jacket.

    They are free to do as they wish. Just as I am.



    They chose to put momentary pleasure for themselves over long term unhappiness for others. I cannot help but take a second look at a person willing to do that. It reveals a very mercenary type of person. Perhaps I am just a means to an end for that person as well, some goal they have that I don't know about.

    It would take a long time for them to prove to me that they weren't a dishonest person at the core if they did something like that. I am just as free to do that as they are over any of their own actions. If you say I cannot, then you are being just as "moralistic" towards me as you accuse me of being towards them.

    I once was friends with a person whom I found out was shoplifting for the sheer thrill of it, I felt the same way towards her. I could not trust her the same as I had before having learned what she was capable of. If she would steal from a store, why not from me?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post

    Well, it is always possible... After all, how would I know?

    But the INFP and I always talk on a very deep personal level and have talked for years; the ESFP meanwhile avoided any deep conversation, and mental pursuits were not his strong suit at all. Odds are very very slim that there is something about that relationship that my friend has not told me, because I am one of his biggest confidantes. He tells me things he won't tell anyone else, because he knows that I understand him and also will not simply judge him.

    I very much got the idea that the INFP was considering this person his "pet project" and investing a lot of time and energy into him to keep the ESFP's life and marriage together, and that he took it very personally when that effort failed. He also has some rough spots from his own childhood, where he was the "fixer" of everyone else's relationships among other things.
    I am not sure that the length or closeness of your relationship with the INFP matters, I think if he were to feel that there were something private between him and the ESFP, he would keep it private even from you.

    I talk deeply with some of the people my relative knows but there are things I know about this person and what occured between us that I will NEVER tell other people that they know because the secrets are potientally damaging to what those other people think of him and he made me PROMISE not to tell them.

    I cannot tolerate this person in my life currently because of the drain and pain but I do not want to poison his other relationships and that I promised not to tell. It does not matter to me that I am actually emotionally closer others involved, I won't betray the confidence or tell things that might damage other relationships that are currently working for him.

    It could simply be, as an INFP your friend gave too much to this person who may have taken and taken and taken without giving and the drain became too much and he felt the need for seperation for self preservation.

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