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  1. #21
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    ESTPs are a force of nature. Malia's right about the "toughen up" mentality because there's no greater juggernaut than an ESTP. I've dated one, and known many. I wouldn't say "don't do it" because that would be wrong. Also, every person is different. I've known chill ESTPs who have lots of sensitivity, and others who were steam rollers.

    Se primaries are powers to be reckoned with!
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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  2. #22
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    ENFJ can cut back plenty hard, so don't underestimate them. ENFJs wonderful gifts can just as easily be misused to devastate.

    The problem is, even if ENFJ attacks with a death blow worthy comeback, it won't matter much. The ESTP, if so motivated, is always willing to raise the stakes and keep on playing. Call it a mutually assured destruction.

    However, maliafee is just warning against a potential issue between the types. I'd listen to her advice, think about it a bit, and go for it anyway.

  3. #23
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    ENFJ can cut back plenty hard, so don't underestimate them. ENFJs wonderful gifts can just as easily be misused to devastate.

    The problem is, even if ENFJ attacks with a death blow worthy comeback, it won't matter much. The ESTP, if so motivated, is always willing to raise the stakes and keep on playing. Call it a mutually assured destruction.

    However, maliafee is just warning against a potential issue between the types. I'd listen to her advice, think about it a bit, and go for it anyway.
    That's what I notice with ESTPs. I have a ESTP coworker that at first she would just get totally out of hand. She'd say something, I'd say something, she'd say something back. At certain points I was just like whatever and didn't feel like going back at her. Another ESTP I used to work with did that too, just kept escalating to places I didn't want to go. That's like their power move they take it to extremes most other people don't want to go.

    But I will say, I think you will earn respect from ESTPs if you get a couple of good death blows on them. I told an old ESTP coworker I was going to put my fist up her ass and twist and I was completely angry and ready to fight and she busted out laughing. After that we were cool, so go figure.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  4. #24
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    I have a male ENFJ friend, we get along well

    He is a very healthy stable ENFJ

    If you are the kind of ENFJ that creates emotional drama and stress to try and crack us then do us a favor and leave us alone

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    That's what I notice with ESTPs. I have a ESTP coworker that at first she would just get totally out of hand. She'd say something, I'd say something, she'd say something back. At certain points I was just like whatever and didn't feel like going back at her. Another ESTP I used to work with did that too, just kept escalating to places I didn't want to go. That's like their power move they take it to extremes most other people don't want to go.

    But I will say, I think you will earn respect from ESTPs if you get a couple of good death blows on them. I told an old ESTP coworker I was going to put my fist up her ass and twist and I was completely angry and ready to fight and she busted out laughing. After that we were cool, so go figure.
    See how it got personal for you? It wasn't personal at all for the ESTP. This is where I think there would be a problem (with repeated incidences in a relationship). I'm not trying to dis ENFJs... I'm actually trying to save them from a lot of trouble. They do get so upset when attacked, and when they want to fight, yes, they can deal death blows and yes they are fucking serious. But that's a weak point from the ESTP point of view, because the ESTP is still NOT taking it seriously... the ESTP is not going to want to handle that kind of intense emotional response time and again, either.

    Startle an ENFJ and they will whip around in their chair ready to fight (seriously). Startle an SP and they will be startled, period. By pouring emotion into everything, the ENFJ is putting themselves at a disadvantage in a fight, because they are draining themselves in a situation that doesn't call for at outpouring of emotion like that (in many cases).

    I want to underline that I'm not trying to attack you ENFJs. I'm trying to point out something to help. Honest.

  6. #26
    Senior Member chris1207's Avatar
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    The thing is I would fly into a rage and well... don't know what I would do to him/her. That's the scary part more than anything. I've only known one. We worked together for 3 or 4 months. Never had any problems that we couldn't tackle. We had an argument about him stepping in on my sales and "helping out" when I was more than capable of doing it all by my lonesome. I was surprised. He was pretty upset when I told him I didn't want his help if he was just going to BS and not really provide any pertinent information for the customer. Little quiver in his voice. Sales were his forte, however, so maybe that was his little baby and he didn't like to be considered incompetent in any capacity when doing them. Who knows? I'm sure it depends on the person. Everyone's different.

    I really don't know why I'm making more of a big deal out of this than I need to. It's good to know that you're not just talking out your arse maliafee and that you have some extensive real-world experience. I just don't like the idea of anyone taking hurting anyone else. Can't we all just get along?

    Edit: LOL didn't read the last page. Consider this part of page 2.
    "... you think deeply about stuff [that] nobody cares about and hardly anybody can understand you." ~ Peguy talking about Ni users. So true.

  7. #27
    Senior Member chris1207's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    But I will say, I think you will earn respect from ESTPs if you get a couple of good death blows on them. I told an old ESTP coworker I was going to put my fist up her ass and twist and I was completely angry and ready to fight and she busted out laughing. After that we were cool, so go figure.
    Yep. The one I knew had the same strange sense of humor that I do. He actually told me that he could see us being best friends despite starting out as coworkers because I was the only person that he knew that said the same "fucked up shit" he does. Yay! Social harmony!
    "... you think deeply about stuff [that] nobody cares about and hardly anybody can understand you." ~ Peguy talking about Ni users. So true.

  8. #28
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Malia - Protean's got a healthy S. She can "take" an ESTP. The trouble is when you're at loggerheads with one that won't stop or listen because they're like hurricanes.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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    EII-Fi subtype, Ethical/Empath, Delta/Beta
    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
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    AIS Holland code
    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by maliafee View Post
    See how it got personal for you? It wasn't personal at all for the ESTP. This is where I think there would be a problem (with repeated incidences in a relationship). I'm not trying to dis ENFJs... I'm actually trying to save them from a lot of trouble. They do get so upset when attacked, and when they want to fight, yes, they can deal death blows and yes they are fucking serious. But that's a weak point from the ESTP point of view, because the ESTP is still NOT taking it seriously... the ESTP is not going to want to handle that kind of intense emotional response time and again, either.

    Startle an ENFJ and they will whip around in their chair ready to fight (seriously). Startle an SP and they will be startled, period. By pouring emotion into everything, the ENFJ is putting themselves at a disadvantage in a fight, because they are draining themselves in a situation that doesn't call for at outpouring of emotion like that (in many cases).

    I want to underline that I'm not trying to attack you ENFJs. I'm trying to point out something to help. Honest.
    This is true, they fight with emotional passion expecting it to phase us (as it would anyone else) then when they see that we were unaffected by the attack they try the same tactic again with a different angle

    Meanwhile we are just trying hard not to burst out laughing

  10. #30
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maliafee View Post
    See how it got personal for you? It wasn't personal at all for the ESTP. This is where I think there would be a problem (with repeated incidences in a relationship). I'm not trying to dis ENFJs... I'm actually trying to save them from a lot of trouble. They do get so upset when attacked, and when they want to fight, yes, they can deal death blows and yes they are fucking serious. But that's a weak point from the ESTP point of view, because the ESTP is still NOT taking it seriously... the ESTP is not going to want to handle that kind of intense emotional response time and again, either.

    Startle an ENFJ and they will whip around in their chair ready to fight (seriously). Startle an SP and they will be startled, period. By pouring emotion into everything, the ENFJ is putting themselves at a disadvantage in a fight, because they are draining themselves in a situation that doesn't call for at outpouring of emotion like that (in many cases).

    I want to underline that I'm not trying to attack you ENFJs. I'm trying to point out something to help. Honest.
    The two ESTPs I've had problems with started off incredibly rocky and ended fine. I'm not sure what I did, but I felt this needling from them that I didn't like. First strategy is to avoid, which usually works most of the time. But I felt like they were seeking me out to start drama on purpose. Even the ESTP I work with at first would come to my cube and start talking to me and it would end in an disagreement of some kind. When I realized my chain was being yanked I wouldn't even turn around when she came by. When I worked in retail the other ESTP would seek me out when I tried to avoid them. On the days she and I worked together I asked to be put in another part of the store so not to interact with her but she'd still come over to me.

    So if you're saying they purposely seek people out to start drama with and get a response then I'd say whatever poo gets on them from the fall out is what they deserve. I certainly don't even try to restrain myself like that. I think I get what you're saying that for them it was always fun and games, but I guess I don't see it that way. I see it as their way of being in control of their environment and the people in it which if the need is strong enough is actually a weakness. I've never viewed ESTPs as being as easygoing as they're portrayed, I've always thought they were very sharp, perceptive, and dominant people.

    What I've found is that most people tend to cave into to them which creates less friction. And at this point I don't even know if it's about personality type. It seems to me that if you fall into their pack (probably stemming from tertiary Fe) you're cool and protected but if not, you're poked and prodded until some reason is found.

    Like I said when I snapped a few times at these ESTPs they both eventually settled down and left me alone. If it was all funnyhaha I suppose they would've continued for shits and giggles but they didn't. And the ESTP I work with now is actually surprisingly open with me about stuff which I would've never expected given how we started out.

    What I'm not liking about this thread is the idea that an ENFJ is basically powerless against an ESTP. It's just not true. This is nothing I think is good or am proud but I can crack people. It's a nasty trait I've noticed about myself. I can do it by sheer overwhelming emotional persistence or by taking something incredibly personal that you've revealed to me about yourself and bashing you over the head with it. Like I said I'm not proud of it, but I know I've done it when I've gotten really angry and am just lashing out and couldn't care less about the repercussions of my words. Some people know that being cool and unruffled is their strong point. That's not my strength and I'll never claim it to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unique View Post
    This is true, they fight with emotional passion expecting it to phase us (as it would anyone else) then when they see that we were unaffected by the attack they try the same tactic again with a different angle

    Meanwhile we are just trying hard not to burst out laughing
    Yeah, maybe it's me, but I've never seen this be an ineffective tactic. And I'm not talking about crying and wailing and screaming as a tactic either.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

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