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  1. #11
    Senior Member gloomy-optimist's Avatar
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    I'd say just make sure not to take things personally. But upfront; don't play any passive-aggressive games, ESTPs don't like that very much. And also be prepared; an ESTP will probably be in-your-face a lot, and sometimes they will exhaust you. Make sure you set up boundaries so you can take a break if you need it, and don't get too defensive or moody, or else you will make them moody as well. And ESTPs can get quite moody if you press the right buttons.

  2. #12
    Senior Member chris1207's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maliafee View Post
    It's not that the ENFJ won't be able to to attack back, the ENFJ attacking back IS THE PROBLEM.
    That's such bullshit. Why the hell do we get panned for having self-worth and attacking back when our values get treaded on? It happens so frequently with ENFJ's and any other type. I know that we have very strong personalities but that doesn't give people a right to discount us when we defend ourselves. I'm so tired of seeing that left and right. We maintain the harmony of the group and push people to be all that they can and every other type just shits all over us...
    "... you think deeply about stuff [that] nobody cares about and hardly anybody can understand you." ~ Peguy talking about Ni users. So true.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris1207 View Post
    That's such bullshit. Why the hell do we get panned for having self-worth and attacking back when our values get treaded on? It happens so frequently with ENFJ's and any other type. I know that we have very strong personalities but that doesn't give people a right to discount us when we defend ourselves. I'm so tired of seeing that left and right. We maintain the harmony of the group and push people to be all that they can and every other type just shits all over us...
    *sigh*

    1. I wasn't saying that it is INHERENTLY bad for an ENFJ to attack back, only that this won't go well with the ESTP in particular, who won't like that kind of big and nuanced response. Because when an ENFJ gets offended and feels attacked, they attack back BIG and emotionally. That is not BAD, but it is distasteful to an ESTP, who won't waste their time with it over the long haul (or understand how to deal with ENFJ drama). That's all I meant to show.

    2. I spent four years with an ENFJ, allowing him to dominate our relationship and run things his way. If I did one thing that didn't match up to his mental image of what he wanted me to be, he would react extremely emotionally and volatile. This could be not answering "What are you thinking about?" in the way he wanted to hear. ENFJs do wonderful things, but every type has their weak points, and not every other type can tolerate those weak points.
    Many INFJs find ESFJs weak points intolerable, for instance. It is my opinion that ESTPs would hurt ENFJs feelings all the time, and the ENFJ's dramatic reactions would be very intolerable to an ESTP.

    3. ENFJs can play the victim, as you are showing right now. You're saying that ENFJs are basically blameless, but all that happens is they get shit on by every other type. This is an overstatement to be sure. Don't you think that every type receives backlash from EVERY other type, due to their own special weaknesses? If every type is mad at ENFJs for blowing up emotionally, maybe that would be a place that an ENFJ would want to start working on personal growth. To turn it around so you know I'm not singling you out, I could say that in my real life, I'm not good at expressing my negative feelings. That causes misunderstandings and people to mistreat me at times. So that's a place I need to start working. Get it? We all have weaknesses, it ain't personal.

  4. #14
    Senior Member SpottingTrains's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maliafee View Post
    It's not that the ENFJ won't be able to to attack back, the ENFJ attacking back IS THE PROBLEM.
    Can you explain this a little more :> ?

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpottingTrains View Post
    Can you explain this a little more :> ?
    Sure!

    It all has to do with intent.

    ***ESTP means it impersonally, ENFJ means and takes it personally.***

    ESTP easily hurts ENFJ's feelings with callous, careless comments, sharply piercing ENFJ's emotional skin.

    ENFJ attacks back with full emotional steam.

    ESTP instantly sees that the ENFJ is reacting out of personal hurt (F) and is irritated that the ENFJ is A)taking things so personally and B)acting out of pure emotion (weak to an ESTP).

    ESTP destroys ENFJ with a word.

    If it is ever repeated, ESTP will not stick around long.

    Therefore, there is nothing wrong with the ENFJ responding as they do (big emotional reaction), but an ESTP will only hurt them worse and/or leave due to such a response.

    I.E. this relationship is either doomed to fail or fraught with difficulty.

    To further illustrate, ESTPs even get annoyed with ISFP/J sulking due to hurt feelings. To see someone blow up at them emotionally because their feelings are hurt (such as an ENFJ under stress and personal attack) is highly boring/intolerable to an ESTP.

  6. #16
    Senior Member SpottingTrains's Avatar
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    Well it sounds like a combination of the ESTPs offhand comments combined with the ENFJs ability not to take things personally is the problem, not ENFJs attacking back. Small semantic, thanks for sharing your thoughts

  7. #17
    Senior Member gloomy-optimist's Avatar
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    I don't think maliafee is saying that the ENFJ is the problem and the ENFJ should change themselves to accommodate the ESTP. I think it's more along the lines of, if you are pursuing this relationship, you should be aware of that side of yourself and how it might negatively affect the interaction between the ESTP.

    Don't take it personally, but it's true that an ESTP probably won't appreciate that emotional backlash, and that's something you have control over. Although I don't necessarily think the ESTP will break in a word; that kind of depends, and I've never encountered that from the ESTPs I know. But they will get very calloused and they probably won't want to put up with that unless you've got a really tight bond.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpottingTrains View Post
    Well it sounds like a combination of the ESTPs offhand comments combined with the ENFJs ability not to take things personally is the problem, not ENFJs attacking back. Small semantic, thanks for sharing your thoughts
    Sure. Thanks for taking them so well. I really didn't mean to put a value on the ENFJ reaction (of that kind), just note that ESTPs won't (usually) tolerate it. Sorry to not have been more clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by gloomy-optimist View Post
    I don't think maliafee is saying that the ENFJ is the problem and the ENFJ should change themselves to accommodate the ESTP. I think it's more along the lines of, if you are pursuing this relationship, you should be aware of that side of yourself and how it might negatively affect the interaction between the ESTP.


    Don't take it personally, but it's true that an ESTP probably won't appreciate that emotional backlash, and that's something you have control over. Although I don't necessarily think the ESTP will break in a word; that kind of depends, and I've never encountered that from the ESTPs I know. But they will get very calloused and they probably won't want to put up with that unless you've got a really tight bond.
    What I meant is that if an ESTP feels attacked they will either leave or destroy the other person with a well chosen word/phrase that cuts worse than the ENFJ (or any type on the receiving end) can imagine. I can't explain why this happens, only that it does and that it might have something to do with the ESTPs hawk-like instincts and alarming charisma.

    If you haven't had this experience it is likely that you have never truly attacked an ESTP.

  9. #19
    Senior Member gloomy-optimist's Avatar
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    That might be true My bff is ESTP, but we've never really fought seriously before. I'm not so sure he can put as much of a dent in me as I can in him, though, because I know his flaws better than he knows mine.

    But I can definitely see how they can really cut. ESTPs seem to be able to catch on quickly to the things that will flatter a person, and also to what will break them down.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by gloomy-optimist View Post
    That might be true My bff is ESTP, but we've never really fought seriously before. I'm not so sure he can put as much of a dent in me as I can in him, though, because I know his flaws better than he knows mine.

    But I can definitely see how they can really cut. ESTPs seem to be able to catch on quickly to the things that will flatter a person, and also to what will break them down.
    You know, an ESTP with a best friend or in love probably will hold out on that "cutting" for longer than, say, if it's his bratty little sister (me). Haha! I grew up with an ESTP older brother and lived with him for almost 20 years of my life. If we had an argument, well and good, but the minute I would go to a tearful attack (last resort because I felt in such a weakened position compared to him, also rare), that's when the knife came out. He could split me with a simple word and gesture even. I've never seen anything like it in any other type, and I've seen it repeated in other ESTPs (though not towards me).

    The smarter the ESTP, the scarier the cut, too. And it doesn't matter if the other party feels more armed (by knowing the ESTPs weak points), because the ESTP has the delivery method that hurts the most.

    (^All just my opinions.)

    Come to think of it, 6 or 7 years ago when I was with an ENFJ, I used to have nightmares that my ESTP brother and ENFJ met and got in a conflict, and then my ESTP brother tore him to shreds and walked off.

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