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  1. #1
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Lightbulb NFs and rationality

    Instead of writting large posts in NT forum against feelings (since I was asked to) I will take more constructive approach.

    This forum is full of posts in which Fs claim that they are able to make rational desicion.
    So I am wondering what rational desicion is in F mindset and how much different are F person rationality and T person rationality?

    Since I am not sure that we think on the same thing when we say rational in many cases.


    In the case you can act like a typical NT, for how long you can maintain that state of mind before you feel the need to experiance/make/say somthing "fluffy" ? What kind of events can throw you out of this state of mind in a blink?

    What parts of NT mindset you find disturbing and/or irrational ?


    Be prepaired to explain your calims in more datail. (just a note )
    There is no need that all replys contain answers to all questions.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    In the case you can act like a typical NT, for how long you can maintain that state of mind before you feel the need to experiance/make/say somthing "fluffy" ? What kind of events can throw you out of this state of mind in a blink?
    Only when I deal with other people do I feel the need to take on the typical NF mindset. The more of a personal connection I have with the person, the less "direct and to the point" I am with them. Having said that, I deal with other people a lot.

    I'm content as long as there's a balance between critical thinking and personal connection.

    What parts of NT mindset you find disturbing and/or irrational ?
    In a stereotypical sense, ignoring or disregarding feelings, especially in others. They're factors; they exist and should therefore be factored into decisions or in communication with other people.

    The most rational and efficient way to communicate with someone is on their level, not necessarily through direct statements. Although brief and to the point, the message behind a direct statement may get "lost in translation" through the speaker's or listener's biases, personalities, and experiences, and so the message isn't received as intended.

    To me, recognizing this but ignoring it is irrational.

  3. #3
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one
    So I am wondering what rational desicion is in F mindset and how much different are F person rationality and T person rationality?
    For me rationality is doing what makes the most sense, what would produce the best results, what would be the most efficient, and what would go toward the greater good. Basically NeTe.

    I am not a slave to my feelings, with impersonal affairs I make decisions based off of Te. For example yesterday I was eating at a restaurant with two friends, we had just finished eating. I wanted some ice cream. I weened myself from my attachment to it and decided "well, I need to save my money, and I don't need something else, I'm content with what I just ate". That's a bare bones example though.

    I tend to let my feelings influence me, but not to the point of irrationality. My Fi is a constant driving voice in my head, it seems to object when I don't feed it, but I have to do what's best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one
    In the case you can act like a typical NT, for how long you can maintain that state of mind before you feel the need to experiance/make/say somthing "fluffy" ? What kind of events can throw you out of this state of mind in a blink?
    Well for me I can remain in my "NT mind state" for a good while, I'm usually spent after three hours doing it, and I need to do other things for a while (a few hours) before I can do it again, such as playing a game, talking to some friends, listening to music, exercising etc. Anything that doesn't include a lot of rational thinking all of the time, it's a way to recharge. Things that can throw me off of this attitude include colorful and powerful emotions, such as lust, anger, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one
    What parts of NT mindset you find disturbing and/or irrational ?
    I can agree with how NTs deal with things, but the only things that bother me are when they totally disregard their feelings, make a choice, then majorly regret it and feel bad later.

    By the way I'm not an INTP.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  4. #4
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    As NTJ I think that it is really a mistake to ignore peoples feeling since that usually leads to problems. But that does not mean that I agree with approach that others use.


    Does this mean that extroverted NF becomes clearly "less rational" in many cases when they are around people they care about?

  5. #5
    movin melodies kiddykat's Avatar
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    According to my MBTI results from a college course my results were:

    1. How I relate to the world- ENFP
    2. How I think internally to myself, probably more reflective of true personality? ENTP

    I find it amazing how I got 2 results.

    I think you're right- my 'fluffiness' is how I would like to treat others, because I assume that as humans, there is a level of 'Respect' we show others, and my assumption is that we're all wounded individuals, who need a bit of tenderness..

    In the back of my mind, I think A LOT- probably too much sometimes, and some of those thoughts are questions I have, because of my curiosity for life, for learning, for wisdom.

    Although I know I *can* make decisions from logic/reasoning, I chose to make my choices from the heart- because I think it speaks truest to our nature, as human beings.

    Maybe I'm naiive, maybe I'm wrong, but I think that in most idealists, there is a rationalist, and behind most rationalists, there is an idealist. Because we hold onto certain notions, thought patterns, I think that is being 'ideal' in itself, in hopes that whatever we think/perceive is true.

    Also I think that temperament relates to the environment we grew up in/our persona we display early on as babies.. so the roles we take on, are just a way for us to grow/mature as individuals.

    Anyway, just because a person's a feeler, doesn't mean they don't rationalize the circumstance. Just means they tend to make decisions based on what they feel is right from within? That is why, even with Jungian analysis, there will not be an accurate way to predict human behavior, because at the heart of it all? I think that we tend to want to be self-actualized individuals so the 4 letter codes really don't matter, when it boils down to it. We just have different ways of communicating/relating. I think, common ground & understanding is something more important to focus on. Total rambling!

  6. #6
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    To think internally to yourself more reflective of yourself is not entp. Thats more like having lunch all day with multiple people at the table
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  7. #7
    movin melodies kiddykat's Avatar
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    I know. The results were a bit.. questionable!

    In fact? I think that instead of polarizing people/our thought patterns, I think there are 3 aspects to human behavior, which probably relates to Freudian concepts of id, ego, s-ego.. I'll save that for another discussion. (minus the part that we're all degraded to a level of sexual primitive beings- I think Carl Rogers was right also- we have a higher level of human potential).

    Besides that? I think psychology has its own social-political implications.

  8. #8
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Anyway, just because a person's a feeler, doesn't mean they don't rationalize the circumstance. Just means they tend to make decisions based on what they feel is right from within?
    That is exactly why NTs have problems with Fs in so many cases.
    You say that they rationalize and then you say that heart plays a big role here. In my "vocabulary" that is not rational approach.

    You rationalize but you "never" cut the value of personal component.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    As NTJ I think that it is really a mistake to ignore peoples feeling since that usually leads to problems. But that does not mean that I agree with approach that others use.


    Does this mean that extroverted NF becomes clearly "less rational" in many cases when they are around people they care about?
    Quote Originally Posted by Viv View Post
    In the back of my mind, I think A LOT- probably too much sometimes, and some of those thoughts are questions I have, because of my curiosity for life, for learning, for wisdom.

    Although I know I *can* make decisions from logic/reasoning, I chose to make my choices from the heart- because I think it speaks truest to our nature, as human beings.

    Maybe I'm naiive, maybe I'm wrong, but I think that in most idealists, there is a rationalist, and behind most rationalists, there is an idealist. Because we hold onto certain notions, thought patterns, I think that is being 'ideal' in itself, in hopes that whatever we think/perceive is true.
    ...
    Anyway, just because a person's a feeler, doesn't mean they don't rationalize the circumstance. Just means they tend to make decisions based on what they feel is right from within? That is why, even with Jungian analysis, there will not be an accurate way to predict human behavior, because at the heart of it all? I think that we tend to want to be self-actualized individuals so the 4 letter codes really don't matter, when it boils down to it. We just have different ways of communicating/relating. I think, common ground & understanding is something more important to focus on. Total rambling!
    Difference in temperament is likely more a matter of differing priorities rather than an issue of rationality/irrationality, or even capability in general.

    When I'm designing some software package, for example, "feelings" just don't play into it (except perhaps from the standpoint that I want to make my software user-friendly, I solicit user opinions, etc.); it's necessarily a rational action.

    I think BlueWing said it best when he highlighted the difference between INTP and INFP. I've got it in my quotes file as follows (emphasis mine):
    "The INFP is governed primarily by Introverted Feeling. This is a rational function and therefore strives to create internal order. Extroverted Intuition tends to be used in service of this faculty. Experiences are to be assessed based on the personal values elected by the INFP. Unlike the dominant Introverted Thinking temperament—the INTP who seeks to derive an understanding of external experiences, the INFP seeks to derive a sense of personal meaning. An INTP asks what is the most accurate model to depict the observed phenomenon, yet the INFP would ask—what personal lesson could be derived from this particular experience? And how this is conducive to an establishment of sound personal values. In short, whilst the INTP tends to ask—what is true, the INFP asks what is humane?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Viv View Post
    According to my MBTI results from a college course my results were:

    1. How I relate to the world- ENFP
    2. How I think internally to myself, probably more reflective of true personality? ENTP

    I find it amazing how I got 2 results.
    I've never seen the MBTI broken down into how one relates to the world and how one thinks internally.. pretty interesting.

  10. #10
    EvanTheClown (ETC) Clownmaster's Avatar
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    I can't speak for all F's, but there are times when I use both approaches, or a mixed variety.

    In many situations, I need to look at the cold hard facts and rationalize what would be the best option out of the multiple scenarios I've formulated in my mind.

    In other situations, I allow my emotions to build on top of the logic, giving me further passion in arguing a point, an inspiration to keep the drive up and bounce the logic around to find a disproving article in someone else's argument.

    And in other situations, particularly ones of the heart, logic only goes so far. Thus I revert to reacting on emotions and impulse.

    Because you can't spell "Slaughter" without "Laughter"

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