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  1. #41
    Senior Member gloomy-optimist's Avatar
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    Rational/irrational does not connect necessarily with good and evil. Those are human constructs to allow society to function without so much conflict, but they are implied more towards intention and selflessness vs. selfishness. Rational/irrational has more to do with the best decision with the best outcome, good judgment, etc. but involves more factors than good and evil; it's not just the intended outcome, but also how it effects the individual, his/her peers, and the future as a whole...In a way I suppose it involves good/evil, but it transcends that as well.

    Which is why it's a combination of F and T functions; F I would equate more with good/evil, and T I would equate more with cold logical deduction. When you add them together, you get the most reasonable outcome socially and objectively.

  2. #42
    it's a nuclear device antireconciler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    I find it irrational to assume that because you use "thinking" instead of "feeling" you will make more rational choices. The "T's" I know do not make any more rational decisions than anyone else, they just like to think they do.

    I have a theoretical mind, I loved thermodynamics, numerical analysis, compressibly fluid flow and control systems design. I can make thinking choices when the need arises.

    I've never seen any reason to believe that a thinker has made more rational life choices or is any happier with life because they can "disregard" feelings.
    Great post! As a practical matter, if the method isn't working (leading you to truth, which is desired, coincident with happiness), then something MUST be broken about it. We can detect irrationality or lack of clarity in anyone with an axe to grind against another simply because they aren't happy!

    It's a sensitivity issue. Meaningfully talking to someone about something requires first that they be sensitive to the issues, and failing that, that they be encouraged toward those FIRST or left the space to discover it themselves. For example, a hard-core materialist will find his logic immaculate, but often in part because they aren't sensitive to complecating issues like the Hard Problem of Consciousness. They jump from not being able to understand it to the idea that it simply doesn't make sense. To their detriment. It takes a bit of compassion (yes, compassion), to apply what is so crucial to rational discussion in the first place: the principle of charity.
    ~ a n t i r e c o n c i l e r
    What is death, dies.
    What is life, lives.

  3. #43
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gloomy-optimist View Post
    Rational/irrational does not connect necessarily with good and evil. Those are human constructs to allow society to function without so much conflict, but they are implied more towards intention and selflessness vs. selfishness. Rational/irrational has more to do with the best decision with the best outcome, good judgment, etc. but involves more factors than good and evil; it's not just the intended outcome, but also how it effects the individual, his/her peers, and the future as a whole...In a way I suppose it involves good/evil, but it transcends that as well.

    Which is why it's a combination of F and T functions; F I would equate more with good/evil, and T I would equate more with cold logical deduction. When you add them together, you get the most reasonable outcome socially and objectively.
    I probably wasn't clear. What I was actually saying is right and wrong.
    Just because society can function this way or that way based on that kind of apprach, that does not mean that this concepts and not based on instinct and "imagination"

  4. #44
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I am curious. What makes you think that you made a choice based purely on logic?
    Since wanting things to be simple and plesant is quite emotional approach to things. Even if it is easy to mask it as rational.
    (but I realise that thing are not that simple)


    When I find myself in this kind of situations I just try to do my best in finnishing a task. I find this approach to be the one that has the best ratio of efficiency and getting out of there. But when it comes to college this highly depends on what you are studing in the first place.
    Well, I said that it was a logical choice because I based it purely on efficiency towards attaining an end-goal and not on values or personal like/dislike. If I had wanted it to be "pleasant and nice," I certainly wouldn't have chosen the class with the prof that I have regular personality conflicts with. I figured that the losses incurred by the bad feelings I get when around that prof (because he's an asshole) were far outweighed by the benefits that the class's schedule and reading list would afford.

    The end-goal I'm talking about is professional advancement. The most efficient route to achieving this goal is to take seminars in my area of study (in my subfield) and use them to produce conference-ready or publication-ready articles, which all help you to get a job once you're ABD or you've got the PhD in hand. In this case, I had already chosen the classes that would be important to my area of study, so this last class would in any case be a class that is extra/not important to my area. In terms of value to my area, then, all were equal.

    So knowing that the value of all of these classes to choose from were equal (in terms of importance to my area of study), I had to move to different criteria to make my decision. I figured that if this class was going to be unimportant no matter what, that I should probably pick the one that (1) fits better with my schedule, and (2) has the least amount of reading.

    The reason for (1) is that I will be able to perform best in a class that fits better with my schedule. I could have taken a class that I liked better, but that fell on a day that I had two other classes, and this would have severely hampered my ability to perform well in the class (that's three 3 hour seminars, so 9 hours at school in one day, plus my two hours of teaching). And I didn't want my grade in an unimportant class to tarnish my record, lowering my chances for employment after graduation. So I chose the class that fit better with my schedule.

    The reason for (2) is that the less time spent reading for an unimportant class, the more time I would have to spend on the important ones without sacrificing my grade in the unimportant class (which would be bad for the aforementioned reasons).

    I guess I didn't mean that it was a "purely logical" decision, but that it was one made without taking my personal values or feelings into account. Of course, it was ultimately based around values (namely, the value placed in professional advancement), but I'm not sure that means it isn't logical.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  5. #45
    Senior Member gloomy-optimist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I probably wasn't clear. What I was actually saying is right and wrong.
    Just because society can function this way or that way based on that kind of apprach, that does not mean that this concepts and not based on instinct and "imagination"
    I'm not quite following you

  6. #46
    Aspie Idealist TaylorS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Which reminds me I had a huge debate with an ENTP friend about the existance of depression. He couldn't comprehend that someone could go against 'nature' and therefore these people were just seeking attention or lazy. I found that quite disturbing, it's difficult to tell whether he truly believed this because he's lived a life of ease and success (Clever individual) or whether he was just screwing around with me. Regardless the Ti he displayed was just twisty! :steam:
    Ugh, you have more self-control then I do. I have Bipolar II and that kind of BS would have provoked to put a boot up his rear end.
    Autistic INFP


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