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  1. #31
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    I find it irrational to assume that because you use "thinking" instead of "feeling" you will make more rational choices. The "T's" I know do not make any more rational decisions than anyone else, they just like to think they do.

    I have a theoretical mind, I loved thermodynamics, numerical analysis, compressibly fluid flow and control systems design. I can make thinking choices when the need arises.

    I've never seen any reason to believe that a thinker has made more rational life choices or is any happier with life because they can "disregard" feelings. In fact, I haven't met anyone who actually is rational.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    I've never seen any reason to believe that a thinker has made more rational life choices or is any happier with life because they can "disregard" feelings. In fact, I haven't met anyone who actually is rational.

    Yeah, real important decisions in one's life aren't simply made by using logic. Otherwise there would be no room for doubt, only faulty logic.

  3. #33
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Because I cannot count the times that I've snapped at someone or acted unkindly out of impatience or ... whatever the reason ... and then I find out their dog just died, or some such. The incident won't leave my mind, just keeps coming back to stab at me again and again, I hurt that person, I didn't know what they were going through, I was thoughtless, I added to their pain, I know better, why didn't I act better ... It keeps coming straight back to me that you never really know why someone acts the way they do and it's just better to be merciful than to try to be just. You can be just unless you're omniscient. So it's impossible for me to determine what someone "deserves." The only way to proceed is to assume that everyone deserves to be treated well at all times.

    I mean, all that said, I'm still a bitch sometimes. But it's not what I'm trying for. It's not justified.
    Maybe we are missunderstanding each other but your reply has nothing to do with with pushing peronal values into a second plan.

    1. Your feelings are what made you snapped in the first place which is because your needs are not met. Also the other person was acting too emotional as well. They have no right to have a problem with your additude since it is obvious that you are in pain as well. Otherwise you would never have snapped.

    The only thing you two had is an emotional exchange that has no real purpose if we overlook the fact that you were wenting.

    In a way this kinds of sitautions can be discribed as situations where emotional intelligence of both sides failed.


    I can't say how many times I have seem Fs destroying eachothers day/week/life like this. (without any real purpose of goal)
    I am not saying that Ts are immune to this but they are less likely to behave this way. (unless they are really unhealthy)

    I am not saying this because I want to offend you I just want to say how this looks to me.



    Quote Originally Posted by alcea rosea View Post
    Antisocial:
    I think no matter what we tell you or try to convice you that we are indeed rational, you won't believe anyway.

    So what's the point?
    I am sorry but what I think is not really important here.
    What is important is what NFs think about their own traits.
    I am just gathering information.

  4. #34
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I am just gathering information.
    For what purpose?

  5. #35
    Senior Member whimsical's Avatar
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    even though i am a big feeler and tend to make most of my quick in-the-moment decisions based on how i feel, i do have the much needed ability to take steps back and look at what is happening, and figure out the most "rational" (logical) thing to do
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  6. #36
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    I find it irrational to assume that because you use "thinking" instead of "feeling" you will make more rational choices. The "T's" I know do not make any more rational decisions than anyone else, they just like to think they do.

    I have a theoretical mind, I loved thermodynamics, numerical analysis, compressibly fluid flow and control systems design. I can make thinking choices when the need arises.

    I've never seen any reason to believe that a thinker has made more rational life choices or is any happier with life because they can "disregard" feelings. In fact, I haven't met anyone who actually is rational.
    I will tell you right now that I have made some of the most terrible choices based on logic alone (without taking value or feelings into account). I'll give an example.

    When I was registering for classes last semester, I noticed that there was a dearth of good classes to take within my own department. We are only allowed one out of department class, so I filled that one easily. That left two more classes to choose (and these from within the department). I chose the first one easily, since it was on a topic I was interested in. The next one was a toss up, since I liked none of the ones that were left.

    So I chose the one that fit best with my schedule, and that had the shortest reading list (a logical choice, since I needed to time my week right in order to get things done, and because the less work I had to do for a class I didn't like, the better). I didn't even take into consideration (1) the fact that I really don't like the profs that were co-teaching it, and (2) the fact that I pretty much hate the topic. This led to the class actually being more work for me over the course of the semester because, in my absolute disgust with both the profs and the subject matter, I skipped assignments and ended up having to take an incomplete to finish up the stuff I didn't turn in (and they doubled the page length for punishment).

    In making the decision initially, I didn't anticipate how my feelings towards the prof and the topic would affect my behavior. It sucks, too, because people warned me. They said, "Orangey, why the hell are you taking this class when you know you hate the prof?" I told them over and over that silly personality differences aren't important and shouldn't be the basis of my decision. How wrong I was.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  7. #37
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    For what purpose?
    1. Just for the sake of knowing.
    2. This stuff could prove to be quite useful to me. Since when I am trying to understand others I relly mostly on logic since my feeling side sucks.
    That is why I said that what I think is not important here. Because in this thread you have information which is nothing more then information.
    It is something I can take into a account or I don't take it into an account.



    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I will tell you right now that I have made some of the most terrible choices based on logic alone (without taking value or feelings into account). I'll give an example.

    When I was registering for classes last semester, I noticed that there was a dearth of good classes to take within my own department. We are only allowed one out of department class, so I filled that one easily. That left two more classes to choose (and these from within the department). I chose the first one easily, since it was on a topic I was interested in. The next one was a toss up, since I liked none of the ones that were left.

    So I chose the one that fit best with my schedule, and that had the shortest reading list (a logical choice, since I needed to time my week right in order to get things done, and because the less work I had to do for a class I didn't like, the better). I didn't even take into consideration (1) the fact that I really don't like the profs that were co-teaching it, and (2) the fact that I pretty much hate the topic. This led to the class actually being more work for me over the course of the semester because, in my absolute disgust with both the profs and the subject matter, I skipped assignments and ended up having to take an incomplete to finish up the stuff I didn't turn in (and they doubled the page length for punishment).

    In making the decision initially, I didn't anticipate how my feelings towards the prof and the topic would affect my behavior. It sucks, too, because people warned me. They said, "Orangey, why the hell are you taking this class when you know you hate the prof?" I told them over and over that silly personality differences aren't important and shouldn't be the basis of my decision. How wrong I was.
    I am curious. What makes you think that you made a choice based purely on logic?
    Since wanting things to be simple and plesant is quite emotional approach to things. Even if it is easy to mask it as rational.
    (but I realise that thing are not that simple)


    When I find myself in this kind of situations I just try to do my best in finnishing a task. I find this approach to be the one that has the best ratio of efficiency and getting out of there. But when it comes to college this highly depends on what you are studing in the first place.

  8. #38
    Senior Member gloomy-optimist's Avatar
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    It's very difficult to separate oneself completely from emotion. People are subjective creatures Even logical decisions have some connection with emotion, even if it is slight.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaylorS View Post
    I can make rational decisions just fine. What make me an NF is the MOTIVATION behind those descriptions. That is, Ti, being my tertiary, is subservient to Ni and Fe; that doesn't mean my Ti is weak, it means that it's just not "in control", it is not a source of motivation. As an INFJ my underlying motivation is to apply ideas towards person-centered, "humanitarian" ends. Ti is the tool that makes sure that the ideas make sense and are based on good facts and good theories.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apollanaut View Post
    To my way of thinking, it is rational to take into account feelings as well as logic when making assessments and judgements. The best decisions are made when both approaches are included.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    if there is a human element i'm incapable of discarding it to apply logic..to me that is irrational because all elements should be considered...every bit gets prioritized and i make a decision that to me seems the most logical.


    I understand if the human element is considered as irrelevant after analysis, but the idea of dismissing it without consideration first just strikes me as extremely irrational. It's like being in a court case, the Judge will be able to make an informed decision after knowing all the details. Nothing should be excluded from analysis.

    On that note: It's my belief that humans are ultimately irrational beings, and all rationalization is based on these foundations. However some could argue that instincts/evolutionary habits are rational, but to me... it just doesn't make much sense. Can you really apply rationality/irrationality to biology? It's like asking whether the universes existance is rational or irrational. @.@;
    I've lost my train of thought of what point I was trying to make now.

    Which reminds me I had a huge debate with an ENTP friend about the existance of depression. He couldn't comprehend that someone could go against 'nature' and therefore these people were just seeking attention or lazy. I found that quite disturbing, it's difficult to tell whether he truly believed this because he's lived a life of ease and success (Clever individual) or whether he was just screwing around with me. Regardless the Ti he displayed was just twisty! :steam:

  10. #40
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gloomy-optimist View Post
    It's very difficult to separate oneself completely from emotion. People are subjective creatures Even logical decisions have some connection with emotion, even if it is slight.
    That is why I said that things are not that simple.


    On the other hand if you can make irrational or rational decisions that would imply that there is good and evil. What probably is not the cases in this reality.

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