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  1. #21
    movin melodies kiddykat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    That is exactly why NTs have problems with Fs in so many cases.
    You say that they rationalize and then you say that heart plays a big role here. In my "vocabulary" that is not rational approach.

    You rationalize but you "never" cut the value of personal component.
    I totally get what you mean Antisocialone..

    Sometimes, what we do in our hearts aren't always the best decisions, at least for me, when it comes to prioritization.. So I understand.

  2. #22
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    if there is a human element i'm incapable of discarding it to apply logic..to me that is irrational because all elements should be considered...every bit gets prioritized and i make a decision that to me seems the most logical.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  3. #23
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    No, I don't think we are.

    And even though you used the word "fluffy" in this thread, I shall still reply as I see the distinction.

    To the NT, rational implies decisions made free from the fetters of emotion. As a factor, emotional impact tends to ranks low in the decision making process, and in reality, NT's can be so out of touch with their emotions that they neglect or even forget to take them into account.

    To the NF, rational means one must include emotional impact as a factor when making decisions. Because emotions play a larger role in daily experience, they are harder to ignore. Generally, most NF's will have examples in their lives from when they ignored their emotions and paid the price afterwards.

    Out of balance, any decision making process is prone to error.

    Classic NT error - allowing facts to govern without considering the human element.
    Classic NF error - allowing feelings to govern when sometimes they should not.

    One is not better than the other; neither are perfect all the time. And since people always possess a combination of T/F, we are all always thinking & feeling. No decisions are purely one or the other. And I challenge you to try to see it otherwise.

    There's nothing inherent in the word rational that says you can't use emotions as part of the reasoning process, ya know.
    yeah, exactly this.
    just now reading the responses but this one answered it better.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  4. #24
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    In the case you can act like a typical NT, for how long you can maintain that state of mind before you feel the need to experiance/make/say somthing "fluffy" ? What kind of events can throw you out of this state of mind in a blink?

    I think it's not too hard to use rational thinking to make most decisions. I can talk things over pretty rationally with others. I think the only time I have trouble with it is if I have very strong feelings about the person I'm talking to, or very strong "moral" feelings about the subject. In that case, it can be hard to keep my rational thought ahead of my emotions.

    What parts of NT mindset you find disturbing and/or irrational ?
    I find it disturbing when NT's refuse to acknowledge the value of feelings, or when they can rationalize things based on logic and leave feelings completely out of it -- sometimes this could be detrimental.
    I-71%, N-80%, F-74%, P-96%

  5. #25
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    No, I don't think we are.

    And even though you used the word "fluffy" in this thread, I shall still reply as I see the distinction.

    To the NT, rational implies decisions made free from the fetters of emotion. As a factor, emotional impact tends to ranks low in the decision making process, and in reality, NT's can be so out of touch with their emotions that they neglect or even forget to take them into account.

    To the NF, rational means one must include emotional impact as a factor when making decisions. Because emotions play a larger role in daily experience, they are harder to ignore. Generally, most NF's will have examples in their lives from when they ignored their emotions and paid the price afterwards.

    Out of balance, any decision making process is prone to error.

    Classic NT error - allowing facts to govern without considering the human element.
    Classic NF error - allowing feelings to govern when sometimes they should not.

    One is not better than the other; neither are perfect all the time. And since people always possess a combination of T/F, we are all always thinking & feeling. No decisions are purely one or the other. And I challenge you to try to see it otherwise.

    There's nothing inherent in the word rational that says you can't use emotions as part of the reasoning process, ya know.
    This emoticon creeps me out, but I'm using it anyway:


    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    For me rationality is doing what makes the most sense, what would produce the best results, what would be the most efficient, and what would go toward the greater good. Basically NeTe.

    I am not a slave to my feelings, with impersonal affairs I make decisions based off of Te.


    ------

    I also make a distinction between my emotions and my feeling as a thought process. My emotions may say one thing, but my values from Fi can say something else. I don't understand "feeling" to necessarily mean emotions or heart, it's a thought process colored by it. I personally find myself in a lot of inner turmoil because of this.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  6. #26
    Senior Member gloomy-optimist's Avatar
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    Since when is rationality isolated to the analytical, concrete, linear?

    Rationality is defined by the merriam-webster dictionary as the state of being rational:

    rational
    \?rash-n?l, ?ra-sh?-n?l\
    Function:
    adjective
    Etymology:
    Middle English racional, from Anglo-French racionel, from Latin rationalis, from ration-, ratio
    Date:
    14th century

    1 a: having reason or understanding b: relating to, based on, or agreeable to reason : reasonable <a rational explanation> <rational behavior>

    In no way does that imply that NFs are irrational. We have a different mode of thinking, a different goal in mind, but we can be perfectly rational in achieving that goal.

    Furthermore, integrating emotion into concrete thought, if done in a proper manner, is not detrimental to an argument; the best arguments take both the mechanical and the human aspects in mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    In the case you can act like a typical NT, for how long you can maintain that state of mind before you feel the need to experiance/make/say somthing "fluffy" ? What kind of events can throw you out of this state of mind in a blink?

    What parts of NT mindset you find disturbing and/or irrational ?


    Be prepaired to explain your calims in more datail. (just a note )
    There is no need that all replys contain answers to all questions.
    I can act like an NT for a decent amount of time. However, I get turned off of it when it gets to the point that I'm no longer able to take into account the humanitarian side as well; I find pure, robotic logic to be more of a weakness than a strength. Almost everything that happens involves someone and affects someone, and it's good foresight to take that into account. That portion is the basis for NF rationality -- naturally, it's also not the best to be without taking the logical into account as well. That's why we have both judging functions; they work best in conjecture.

    What I find disturbing is when an NT is too stuck in this mechanical, fact-based logic and is no longer connected to the human side. It's not really disturbing, though; more kind of irritating than anything, just as a strong F would be irritating to a T. There's not really a "right" or "wrong," but more of a lack of a bridge of communication.


    Okay, I'm done. Hope that made sense.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by gloomy-optimist View Post
    In no way does that imply that NFs are irrational. We have a different mode of thinking, a different goal in mind, but we can be perfectly rational in achieving that goal.
    I'm confused. If we make a decision primarily based on feeling, I don't understand how that could be considered a rational decision. Often, our feelings might line up with rational thought, but don't we have to think the rational thoughts before we know that the feelings are justified?

    We NF's can surely be rational, but isn't it typically something we work at and develop?
    I-71%, N-80%, F-74%, P-96%

  8. #28
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    No, I don't think we are.

    And even though you used the word "fluffy" in this thread, I shall still reply as I see the distinction.

    To the NT, rational implies decisions made free from the fetters of emotion. As a factor, emotional impact tends to ranks low in the decision making process, and in reality, NT's can be so out of touch with their emotions that they neglect or even forget to take them into account.

    To the NF, rational means one must include emotional impact as a factor when making decisions. Because emotions play a larger role in daily experience, they are harder to ignore. Generally, most NF's will have examples in their lives from when they ignored their emotions and paid the price afterwards.

    Out of balance, any decision making process is prone to error.

    Classic NT error - allowing facts to govern without considering the human element.
    Classic NF error - allowing feelings to govern when sometimes they should not.

    One is not better than the other; neither are perfect all the time. And since people always possess a combination of T/F, we are all always thinking & feeling. No decisions are purely one or the other. And I challenge you to try to see it otherwise.

    There's nothing inherent in the word rational that says you can't use emotions as part of the reasoning process, ya know.
    I agree with what is said here. I think what we have here are differing perceptions/definitions of 'rationality'. Yet I feel we both make decisions from inherently the same methodology.

    Rationality is defined as 'the capacity for logic, reason and analytical thinking'. And if you consider logic to be drawing conclusions and making deductions from observed/understood causes and effects - are we really on different paths here? What we are looking at here is discernment, sound decision-making and the ability to use common sense. Can you say that on the whole NTs make better decisions than NFs? Hardly. Good decision-making is not defined by type.

    An example of a common moral dilemma to illustrate. Imagine a situation of two doctors (a NT and a NF) working in a busy emergency ward that is short on staff. Two people are brought in after a car accident. They are informed that one is a drunk driver, the other, a small child he hit with his car. While the child's injuries are bad, the driver's injuries are more serious. The doctors are also horrified to discover that the child is that of a mutual friend. Both doctors are disgusted with the driver's actions and concerned for their friend but both come to the same conclusion, to treat the driver first. The NT doctor decides this because he knows he should not let his emotions sway his medical decisions - the man needs more immediate attention so clearly he should receive it. The NF doctor thinks the driver should be treated first because he feels that he may not know all the details of the accident and may have been misinformed (ie. the child may have run out on the road, the driver had had only one drink), that people are innocent until proven guilty, but even regardless of this, that all people are deserving of equal, humane treatment.

    This is the same conclusion, which both reached through reasoning yet based on differing premises. Also, both were based on value judgements, possibly even coming from similar ethical beliefs. Sure, there are NFs that would say treat the child first, just as there are NTs that would do the same. The point is, being an F doesn't necessarily mean you will be unable to control your emotions in making a decision. I have T relations that would say, "String the bastard up! He doesn't deserve life!" - surely an irrational emotional response.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that its a matter of what you funnel your decision-making process through - the old 'head vs heart'. And relying your heart to choose a course of action can be just as valuable (or rational for that matter ) as going by your head.

  9. #29
    Senior Member gloomy-optimist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jewelchild View Post
    I'm confused. If we make a decision primarily based on feeling, I don't understand how that could be considered a rational decision. Often, our feelings might line up with rational thought, but don't we have to think the rational thoughts before we know that the feelings are justified?

    We NF's can surely be rational, but isn't it typically something we work at and develop?
    The feeling judging function doesn't mean you can't think :/ A better explanation would be that you have different priorities. An F thought process is still rational; it's not based totally on feeling, or else it would be closer to instinct. It's just more subjective rather than objective, but it's still rational.

    Just to clarify, rationality ? logic. You don't have to be a T to make a good decision; in fact, there's a lot of situations where it'd be better to use an F function, namely social and dynamic situations. It's not an irrational function; it's just a different mode of thinking.

    It's a big misunderstanding between Thinking and Feeling; they're not named that because one is based off of thought and the other off of emotions. You think with both of them. The main difference has to do with how you think and the priorities you have in your thought process, whether that be concrete systems or abstract systems.

  10. #30
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Antisocial:
    I think no matter what we tell you or try to convice you that we are indeed rational, you won't believe anyway.

    So what's the point?

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