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  1. #11
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    Since I am not sure that we think on the same thing when we say rational in many cases.
    well, when i talk about rationality, i mean a stage of development, meaning something that a lot of NT (and other people) don't have achieved yet. it seems likely, that this stage requires fluent cooperative use of at least 3, probably 4 functions, but that's a quick shot for explaining how one's thinking process changes when one becomes rational. also i am not exactly sure, if my personal understanding of what constitutes rational thinking is actually the rational stage or the stage above rationality.

    the word rational (without -ity) as adjective, describing a decision ... i am not used to apply such a label to anything i do or decide ... you can have that one.

  2. #12
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanook View Post
    well, when i talk about rationality, i mean a stage of development, meaning something that a lot of NT (and other people) don't have achieved yet.
    Are you serious ? Boy you are giving me the creeps
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #13
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    You rationalize but you "never" cut the value of personal component.
    I do; I can. I just hate myself afterwards. It's not worth it.

  4. #14
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I do; I can. I just hate myself afterwards. It's not worth it.
    That is why I placed quotation marks there.

    Would you mind telling me why this is so stressful for you?



    If someone else wants to answer this one the person is welcome.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Because I cannot count the times that I've snapped at someone or acted unkindly out of impatience or ... whatever the reason ... and then I find out their dog just died, or some such. The incident won't leave my mind, just keeps coming back to stab at me again and again, I hurt that person, I didn't know what they were going through, I was thoughtless, I added to their pain, I know better, why didn't I act better ... It keeps coming straight back to me that you never really know why someone acts the way they do and it's just better to be merciful than to try to be just. You can be just unless you're omniscient. So it's impossible for me to determine what someone "deserves." The only way to proceed is to assume that everyone deserves to be treated well at all times.

    I mean, all that said, I'm still a bitch sometimes. But it's not what I'm trying for. It's not justified.

  6. #16
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Since I am not sure that we think on the same thing when we say rational in many cases.
    No, I don't think we are.

    And even though you used the word "fluffy" in this thread, I shall still reply as I see the distinction.

    To the NT, rational implies decisions made free from the fetters of emotion. As a factor, emotional impact tends to ranks low in the decision making process, and in reality, NT's can be so out of touch with their emotions that they neglect or even forget to take them into account.

    To the NF, rational means one must include emotional impact as a factor when making decisions. Because emotions play a larger role in daily experience, they are harder to ignore. Generally, most NF's will have examples in their lives from when they ignored their emotions and paid the price afterwards.

    Out of balance, any decision making process is prone to error.

    Classic NT error - allowing facts to govern without considering the human element.
    Classic NF error - allowing feelings to govern when sometimes they should not.

    One is not better than the other; neither are perfect all the time. And since people always possess a combination of T/F, we are all always thinking & feeling. No decisions are purely one or the other. And I challenge you to try to see it otherwise.

    There's nothing inherent in the word rational that says you can't use emotions as part of the reasoning process, ya know.

  7. #17
    Aspie Idealist TaylorS's Avatar
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    I can make rational decisions just fine. What make me an NF is the MOTIVATION behind those descriptions. That is, Ti, being my tertiary, is subservient to Ni and Fe; that doesn't mean my Ti is weak, it means that it's just not "in control", it is not a source of motivation. As an INFJ my underlying motivation is to apply ideas towards person-centered, "humanitarian" ends. Ti is the tool that makes sure that the ideas make sense and are based on good facts and good theories.
    Autistic INFP


  8. #18
    Member Phenix's Avatar
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    If we define feeling/emotion as an assessment of how our decision impacts another then it becomes one of either screening criteria (do I throw this course of action out because of it) or one of many decision criteria (what is the best course of action).

    One way to look at it would be that the NF weights the impact on others equally or more heavily than other criteria. NTs would tend to weight it less, or not even choose it as a decision criterion.

  9. #19
    Senior Mugwump Apollanaut's Avatar
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    To my way of thinking, it is rational to take into account feelings as well as logic when making assessments and judgements. The best decisions are made when both approaches are included.
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

    "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." - Gandalf The Grey

    And if I only could,
    I'd make a deal with God,
    And I'd get him to swap our places,
    Be running up that road,
    Be running up that hill,
    With no problems.

    - Kate Bush

  10. #20
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    I can function with a strong Te for short stretches or when a situation is very important. Then I HAVE to stop and take a break.

    I started a fight with my bf entp the other day, as she came in my office and was giving me lists of stuff to do. I burst into singing the "happy project manager song". She (in a very stressed out Fe dominant mode) was like WTF? The next day she was giving me a hard time about something else and I realized she was still mad at me. I had to stop and think-why did I start singing and "fluffing" out?

    It was becuase I was very tired mentally. I could not take anymore information through Ne, as I was overwhelmed and felt out of control. So I basically exploded externally to block all the incoming info as I needed a break-an Se-Fi sort of explosion outwards to block incoming Ne I think...

    Anyways once I explained the above we were good, but thought it is worth sharing as I never really thought through what the "feezuires"/silly switch were all about before now-at least for me of course.

    With respect to decisions me and her had another good conversation today. When I work with a group of people I want them to FEEL happy. She wants them to ACT happy, ie not fight. secondary Fi vs tertiary Fe I think at work.

    I am motivated by others happiness and will make the decision that maximizes happiness for the most number of people. Its very utilitarian in nature. This means I may directly piss you off but if it is in the best interest of the company (which normally translates into the happiness of employees and customers) then I will strongly decide to pursuethat choice over others. Normally it is logical but not free of emotionally considered context in anyway. Typically this Te powered decision, and resultant unhappiness, does bother me considerably and cause me emotional discomfort but I realize the end result is for the best.

    I think this same thought process may explain why some NFs neglect thier nearest and dearest for what they consider the greater good. They have to maximize happiness if that makes sense???

    sorry this is all over the place... Not sure if I answered the question or not

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