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Thread: ENFJ and Groups

  1. #21
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpottingTrains View Post
    Well I think you are on the mark with that we are afraid of the social rejection but also it comes back to just abiding by social norms. If anyone around me does something that is outside what is deemed 'acceptable' by society then I immediately get very embarrassed/nervous for them. Which may sound weird because obviously their acts or emotions are in no way portraying anything negative about me but I still feel everyone else's reactions to that person.

    When around my ENTJ friends its almost as if they replace what I deem appropriate in society with their own societal norms. At first this was weird but overtime it now feels completely natural. Of course when I am by myself I still default back to my original 'omg-I-hope-i'm-not-late-everyone-is-going-to-stare' level of social awareness.
    That's me all over, too, Trains. *nods*
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  2. #22
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    I don't really feel afraid to be the first person to put myself out there, say what I think people want to say but no one is saying for whatever reasons. I'm not talking about being silly, funny or a goofball, because I really do get somewhat self-conscious about that but I'll do it if I feel it's necessary to break the ice. Possibly the Get Things Going Personality style? It is pretty self-perpetuating because afterward I've had people come to me and say thank you for saying that or asking that. In those situations I feel like the "greater good" is to say something and not worry about possible negative social repercussions.

    What's acceptable is dictated by your environment. I go to one friends house and they don't care if I put my feet on their couch and another wants me to take off my shoes before I step inside. One work atmosphere may expect you to be in a business dress everyday and another doesn't care if you come in in shorts and flip flops. So what's acceptable to me is more or less a sliding scale depending on where I'm at and who I'm with.

    So this leads me to other questions regarding ENFJs and groups:
    1. Are you all reluctant to disagree with the group? If you do disagree what do you do--hold it to yourself or say something? Are you likely to bring disagreement up privately rather than publicly?
    2. How comfortable do you filling a leadership role within a group or organization? Is this position something you seek or do you fall into that role?
    3. What do you all think about the "greater good" when it comes groups, i.e. upsetting some people in the short run to make most people happy in the long run?


    I'm trying to tease out some differences between FeNi and FeSi. Honestly, I'm surprised at how shy the ENFJs responding to this feel in groups. I thought that was a type strong point so it's interesting to hear these concerns.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  3. #23
    Senior Member SpottingTrains's Avatar
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    Are you all reluctant to disagree with the group? If you do disagree what do you do--hold it to yourself or say something? Are you likely to bring disagreement up privately rather than publicly?
    This all depends on the situation I am in. If I feel that people would actually be willing to discuss what I say then I will always put forth whatever I am thinking. Otherwise I will keep it to myself if I feel that no good will come of me putting out my views on the topic.

    How comfortable do you filling a leadership role within a group or organization? Is this position something you seek or do you fall into that role?
    In my management class this year I was pegged as the 'natural leader'. According to my instructor this was someone who naturally ascends to a leadership position unconciouslly. The downside to this is when delegated authority I am much more awkward. I guess I enjoy seeing the big picture of a project and putting into motion all the things that need to happen.

    What do you all think about the "greater good" when it comes groups, i.e. upsetting some people in the short run to make most people happy in the long run?
    As much as I dislike displeasing people at anytime I do see the merit in the "greater good" approach and it is something that I have had to often employ. When making any decision in leadership you will almost always have someone upset over the decision you make so following this approach clicks with me. I may not be promoting group harmony at the present time but the future payoff will hopefully put everything back on track.

    What are your thoughts Protean and Pink?

  4. #24
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Of the ENFJs I know, they will hold strong opinions and have definite taste, and yet that can all go out the window in a group setting!

    I see my ENFJ friends agreeing with someone when they had previously expressed the opposite viewpoint to me (sometimes quite passionately), and my jaw drops open. I start to wonder what their real view is...were they just agreeing with me earlier?

    I think they do not like to be the voice of dissent in a group or with someone they don't know well. In other situations, they may be very opinionated and stubborn about their views. When I have tried to temper these views and offer alternate reasoning, of course they will acknowledge it, but I wonder if deep down it changes anything. It's like they're both unwavering and yet spineless.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  5. #25
    Senior Member SpottingTrains's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Of the ENFJs I know, they will hold strong opinions and have definite taste, and yet that can all go out the window in a group setting!

    I see my ENFJ friends agreeing with someone when they had previously expressed the opposite viewpoint to me (sometimes quite passionately), and my jaw drops open. I start to wonder what their real view is...were they just agreeing with me earlier?

    I think they do not like to be the voice of dissent in a group or with someone they don't know well. In other situations, they may be very opinionated and stubborn about their views. When I have tried to temper these views and offer alternate reasoning, of course they will acknowledge it, but I wonder if deep down it changes anything. It's like they're both unwavering and yet spineless.
    Well I think there is a fine line between agreeing and acknowledging someones opinion. I know when I first meet someone I won't divulge my viewpoints onto them right away, partially because being an Atheist and fairly liberal on a lot of issues doesn't mesh that well with a lot of people. What I will do is nod my head or acknowledge what they are saying and interjecting with questions. Totally reversing their views in order to gain favour with a person seems quite devious or someone who is still figuring out their world view.

  6. #26
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Of the ENFJs I know, they will hold strong opinions and have definite taste, and yet that can all go out the window in a group setting!

    I see my ENFJ friends agreeing with someone when they had previously expressed the opposite viewpoint to me (sometimes quite passionately), and my jaw drops open. I start to wonder what their real view is...were they just agreeing with me earlier?

    I think they do not like to be the voice of dissent in a group or with someone they don't know well. In other situations, they may be very opinionated and stubborn about their views. When I have tried to temper these views and offer alternate reasoning, of course they will acknowledge it, but I wonder if deep down it changes anything. It's like they're both unwavering and yet spineless.
    sometimes i'll just play along. i'll nod to finish a conversation that is pointless or requires too much work getting around the red tape. i can be very gentle and subtle in my articulations, slowly tweaking the expression like a yoga instructor. guiding hand. voice-leading, etc. i think nfj types aren't really combative or hostile generally, and would rather avoid confrontation if at all possible. unless it is a particular battle we are invested in far and above over others. ive also noticed that i'm wayyyy better at balancing directing and informing as i've gotten older.

    i used to be way more confrontational and uphold my values more. but i think for infj and enfj having a good balance between perceiving and the initial desire for extraverted judging needs to come into its own. what a shapeshifter needs, a shape-shfiter gets. it helps us expand and not be stuck in place with bad information, poorly conceived perspectives, unhelpful voices/others embodied, etc. we have to be able to table our judgment so that our perceiving function has information to work with. nfp types are more easily spontaneous in their perceiving, can find the information they need more quickly in the moment partly bc their values lock on to something specific and ground them in their own subjective experience. we're really backwards and inside out. our judgments happen outside of us/our bodies, weigh factors that are subjectively and radically Other, etc. our ideals are posited in what we view these SHOULD be, a process in which we creatively imagine our own unique utopian standard. the direction our vision is facing, the big picture of what we are trying to do. there is often a subconsious unspoken holographic method to the madness. and yes, it often helps us to have to articulate it to others, a process which refines and clarifies as much as it maddens and muddies.

  7. #27
    Senior Member SpottingTrains's Avatar
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    Trying to get back on topic. It has been brought up a few times in this thread that ENFJs will sometimes alter their exterior views in order to promote group harmony. Personally, I feel like I follow a system of appeasement by being interested in what their view is rather than adapting to what values they hold.

    Though honestly, I can think back and isolate certain times where my stance has maybe wavered to promote group harmony. I'm definitely going to be on the outlook more often now to see how I handle that kind of situation.

    I'm curious about the other ENFJs here. Have you ever intentionally or even unintentionally (which seems more likely) altered a certain view or idea you have held in order to make a situation go smoother?

  8. #28
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpottingTrains View Post
    Trying to get back on topic. It has been brought up a few times in this thread that ENFJs will sometimes alter their exterior views in order to promote group harmony. Personally, I feel like I follow a system of appeasement by being interested in what their view is rather than adapting to what values they hold.

    Though honestly, I can think back and isolate certain times where my stance has maybe wavered to promote group harmony. I'm definitely going to be on the outlook more often now to see how I handle that kind of situation.

    I'm curious about the other ENFJs here. Have you ever intentionally or even unintentionally (which seems more likely) altered a certain view or idea you have held in order to make a situation go smoother?
    I don't know, I've always been one to speak up especially in groups. I'm not really afraid to be a dissenter either. I'm generally an outspoken person and I don't move in fear of offending people. A common ExFJ pitfall (one I fall prey to myself) is constantly worrying about how your words will be received how to phrase things is just the perfect manner.

    And maybe my Fe is broken in some ways because at some point it's me or the other person. I don't always try to/want to/ or feel a need to cushion the other people's feelings. In someways I feel like that's a little condescending. And when I look at the people I admire most at my job, they are the ones who asked valid but somewhat authority-challenging questions or respectfully disagree. I was CC'ed on the most awesome email from a coworker asking why such and such policies are being enacted at my job considering the current financial crisis. And the response to the questions was even more awesome. I know my Fe comes out in the fact that I expect people to have an acceptable and reasonable amount of emotional maturity to handle diplomatically phrased unpleasantness. The fear of offending feels like a straitjacket sometimes.

    Even though introverted judgment is my inferior function, I do feel on a daily basis the need to stand firm to my personal principles and hold on to my personal sense of integrity. Maybe it would be helpful to write down what your personal principles are as free from outside influence as possible so you'll have them articulated in concrete terms. I know my principle of being straightforward with people trumps my inclination to not say anything.

    The Fe need for harmony depends on how well the ENFJ in question feels they are equipped to handle it disharmony. If they don't know any strategies for dealing with disharmony then they'll avoid it at all costs. And it really depends on the development of the ENFJ or hell, any growing and maturing individual. I hesitate to call it immaturity because I think that has negative connotations. I think inexperience is the more apt term. Some ENFJs haven't had the hide thickening experiences that others have, or haven't judiciously tempered their expectations of others or relaxed the harmful expectations they have on themselves. Some just have that sensitivity that will never leave them and it's not necessarily a bad thing.

    i guess with these type things, I have a feeling people expect it to be like the way Athena sprung fully formed from Zeus' head. I feel like inherent in the description of some types, maturity is something inherent which is totally untrue. That's why I can't get with either the ENFJ or ESFJ profiles because this motherly caretaking/benevolence that isn't necessarily there with me.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  9. #29
    Senior Member SpottingTrains's Avatar
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    Very interesting, your ability to dissent and put out an opinion contrary to one the group holds is probably something I should work towards. Thinking back though I can see myself offering extremely differing viewpoints but attempting to phrase it in the nicest way possible. I don't know if I could ever separate completely how my words would be received and what I want to say.

    With regards to your admiration of your strong willed co-workers I think that ENFJs can definitely play that role as well. I know that whenever there is an outside force causing conflict within the group I feel an urge to deal with.

    As far as your Fe being broke goes I don't see it in necessarily that light. I think that you maybe have matured to a point where if you feel you have the necessary knowledge on a certain subject then you will confront them on the issue at hand. Personally, I feel that I know quite a lot information that spans a diverse range of topics but it is hard for me to feel confident enough to say:

    "No, you're actually incorrect, it is X."

    Instead I will usually go with this route:

    "Interesting, I was reading Y and Z discussed that X probably is the correct answer, why do you think your answer is correct?"

    I don't know which is better. Maybe it is a sign of immaturity that I always have to leave myself an escape path or even give them an escape path (just realized that latter part).
    Some ENFJs haven't had the hide thickening experiences that others have, or haven't judiciously tempered their expectations of others or relaxed the harmful expectations they have on themselves.
    I think I have earned my fair share of hide thickening experiences (with more to come I am sure) but the second part about harmful expectations really resonates. I feel that I have all of these far flung goals with no direction to achieve them. Every second of my life whenever I am not learning something new or attempting to figure out an issue I feel as if I am just wasting my life.

    Benevolence and Care-taking are something that I have pushed myself away from for a large part of my 'mature' life but conveniently they still stick around and earn me my emotional bruises. Is any ENFJ as caring as the description makes us out? I really don't know, I care on an unconscious level that I feel as if I could never control.

  10. #30
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post

    Are you all reluctant to disagree with the group? If you do disagree what do you do--hold it to yourself or say something? Are you likely to bring disagreement up privately rather than publicly?
    If it's a group of friends, I will state my opinion but in a non-aggressive manner. example: Last night, my friend Shorty and I were talking about certain bands and actors, and we diverged pretty drastically at places. I believe you can state a contrary opinion without being contrary.

    If it's a group of people I don't know, unless they're beating someone up or calling someone horrible names, then I say nothing. It's not an arena I'll step into.

    How comfortable do you filling a leadership role within a group or organization? Is this position something you seek or do you fall into that role?
    I've fallen into it. Or it gets assigned to me. I like to believe that my intelligence and curiosity promote me to my authority figures, but I also don't seek that sort of position. I'd prefer a team action. Leadership = anxiety for me. Having said that, I've found myself having to organize things in a group that refuses to be ordered unless whip-cracking occurs. I usually do that ONLY when my own outcome is pending with theirs.

    What do you all think about the "greater good" when it comes groups, i.e. upsetting some people in the short run to make most people happy in the long run?
    Greater good MUST be that, and not my perception of it, so I frequently refrain from comment. But as I said, if you're dragging me and everyone else down with you, I'm going to put my boot in you.

    Trying to tell a close friend they're losing it - I go for firm but kind. No name calling. No shame-on-yous. Whatever the situation warrants. I get spoiled on being extremely open and honest with my sister, and it annoys me when I find that I can't say what needs to be said without another person blowing up in my face.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
    Inquistive/Limbic
    AIS Holland code
    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

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