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[ENFP] ENFPs: Hopeless Flirts?

bluebell

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OK, I have a question for the ENFPs. Do you guys adap the flirting or intense interactions or whatever you call it depending on who you're talking to or are you the same with everyone? The reason why I'm asking is I'm wondering if you take into account how the other person may interpret your behaviour or how well they may be able to handle it?
 
G

garbage

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haven't read the whole thread but I think we just end up naturally connecting with those we talk to, and such a deep initial connection can be perceived by others as flirtatious.
 

Amargith

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OK, I have a question for the ENFPs. Do you guys adap the flirting or intense interactions or whatever you call it depending on who you're talking to or are you the same with everyone? The reason why I'm asking is I'm wondering if you take into account how the other person may interpret your behaviour or how well they may be able to handle it?

I personally adapt it as I go along. I tend to start very innocently and gradually build it up as well, unless there's a clear indication that the other person is up for a challenge or I'm trying to shock/mess with them (usually this is a one time remark then). You can of course gauge it wrongly, and that's why I tend to back off and see how they react before I continue. To me, it totally depends on the other person as to how far I take it. Much like a good game of tennis, or tag. It's no fun to continue if the other person doesn't wanna play imo, and I'm not the kind of person that likes to push people into something they don't enjoy doing. And I do stop, when asked to.

I tend to bring up the fact that I have a boyfriend, I'm just joking and they can stop me at any given time casually in the conversation as the game continues.

It's true that not everyone finds this fun, or knows how to handle this, so adjusting to the other person is very important, imo. I learned over the years that if you don't watch your step, things can get very ugly.
 

Salomé

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A lot of my strident attitude comes from a desire to get people to acknowledge that it can be dangerous or unkind and to stop justifying everything they do as harmless or meaningless. Without consequence.

In reality, I could give a shit what people do as long as their partner is truly, honestly cool with it. But, you know, it's not even about whether it's wrong or hurtful to your SO. It's also about what does it mean to sexualize interpersonal encounters? Is it fair to engage people romantically or sexually without real intent to follow through? Does no one truly get hurt? And, if we treat romantic or sexual connection as something casual or as a tool for "intensifying personal interactions", what does this mean about who we are or how we value romance and sex?

I don't believe flirting is necessarily always hurtful or always serious or always dangerous or always leads to something. I just get frustrated by the attitude of "anything goes" and that no one should question things we accept just because people want to have their fun.

I'm not always so black and white. But, I feel I must be black and white to reveal the nuance. If that makes sense. If we all start in the middle, if I go soft and fail to cut at your argument, then there is no synthesis of views. You do not defend what you believe or think to be true. I want to see your defense because then I know what your attitudes are based on. If it is principles, you will show me. If it is selfishness, you will show me.
Excellent post!
to take this further, is it fair to use Fi or Fe during our interactions with others even if there is no sexual context, or romantic flirtiness at all.

Both promise some sense of personal closeness and connectivity. Is it fair to use that emotional connectivity to achive an aim, a goal, a consesnsus? Most of the time we do this instinctually-probably just like the flirting, actually-but once we are aware we are doing it is it still ethical? It is the same argument as above just made more global.

Is it okay to "promise" emotional connectivity through a feeling function when we understand the recepient will never realize the true depth of that connectivity/function?

Should we all become automons or ultra thinkers who only interact with others via pure logic?

I dont know the answers, as this has been bothering me as of late, but I think the take home message is that the message is often instincually derived-we dont realize what we are doing.

Once we are aware the sender has to become responsible for modulating the bahavior somewhat, as they have to take responsibility for the potential for mixed communications and message they just conveyed.
This is interesting. I've taken issue with this in the past too. ENFPs can hurt people frequently by showing more interest than they can sustain. Either because of their own shattered illusions or their brief attention-span.

"This ENFP did this to me", "That ENFP did that to him", that kind of thing. As if a couple of examples sufficed or brought with them anything relevant to the the "ENFPs flirting with no sense of boundaries" claim.
...
This smeels like ENFPs on trial.
You're drawing your own conclusions based on an unfounded feeling of persecution. People have merely shared their experiences.
Amargith said:
How do you justify it when you insult someone as a joke, coz that's your type of bantering, and they take it seriously? And why do you feel the need to insult them in the first place? It's pretty much the same thing imo.
I was dismissive of this point yesterday. It's valid. If someone points out that your manner of interaction is hurtful, it's not a valid justification to say "that's just who I am, deal with it". This is something I have had to work on as an NT. But two wrongs don't make a right. And it's not really relevant to the topic.

OK, I have a question for the ENFPs. Do you guys adapr the flirting or intense interactions or whatever you call it depending on who you're talking to or are you the same with everyone? The reason why I'm asking is I'm wondering if you take into account how the other person may interpret your behaviour or how well they may be able to handle it?
My sis is an ENFP and there have been countless times I've been in situations where it's obvious to me that a mutual friend or acquaintance is misreading her interest and is going to end up getting hurt. She always responds with wide-eyed innocence and I find this difficult to fathom, since ENFPs are usually so good at reading other people. But they are also really good at not seeing what's right in front of them when they don't want to, or of justifying their behaviour as above reproach and "other-centred". Does my head in, because I'm almost always right about how it is going to go down, but we all have our blind spots.
 

Amargith

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I was dismissive of this point yesterday. It's valid. If someone points out that your manner of interaction is hurtful, it's not a valid justification to say "that's just who I am, deal with it". This is something I have had to work on as an NT. But two wrongs don't make a right. And it's not really relevant to the topic.

So what will you do? Carve out that piece of your personality? Give up the thing you enjoy so? Or adjust it so it won't hurt the people you accidently hurt and keep doing it to others who can take it? Coz if you read my previous post...I chose the latter option :)
 

Amargith

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Not sure what you're asking. Like anything in life, this is something you just learn, practice makes you appreciate it more and refine it, I guess.
 

ajblaise

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So what will you do? Carve out that piece of your personality? Give up the thing you enjoy so? Or adjust it so it won't hurt the people you accidently hurt and keep doing it to others who can take it? Coz if you read me previous post...I chose the latter option :)

bluemonday called me a bitch the other day :cry:

She can't stop, because her heart was blackened and made numb by extended frostbite as a child.
 

Salomé

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So what will you do? Carve out that piece of your personality? Give up the thing you enjoy so? Or adjust it so it won't hurt the people you accidently hurt and keep doing it to others who can take it? Coz if you read me previous post...I chose the latter option :)
None of the above. Mostly just not engage people who don't understand or appreciate me on anything other than a superficial basis.

Not sure what you're asking. Like anything in life, this is something you just learn, practice makes you appreciate it more and refine it, I guess.

How does it get ugly?
 

Amargith

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:hug: Ajblaise:hug:

Poor baby.... ;)
 

Amargith

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None of the above. Mostly just not engage people who don't understand or appreciate me on anything other than a superficial basis.

How does it get ugly?


Oh I use that option to, but I save it for last, as I enjoy talking to people.


Let's see. When I first learned about how flirting worked, I had no idea what I was doing or how it affected people. I was just being myself and enjoying the fact that I got along with people so well. One of the first things I learned early on was that a lot of guys already very much appreciate it someone just smiles at them and is approachable. But at that age (I was 17), those guys didn't have the insight anymore than I did and didn't realize that I was just being friendly. And some did take it the wrong way, which I thoroughly regretted. Later on, I lost also a soulmate this way. So I learned. I learned to indicate that I was in fact taken, that I was just joking. And, when that wasn't enough, how to stop doing what I was doing to prevent further harm, even if they didn't request me to do so, for our own good.

I'm not saying I'm infallable at this. But I do try my best to make things crystal clear from the beginning. And I learn from every experience.
 

Lady_X

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I think staying on the high road is admirable. I just think there's a fundamental difference between expressing your personality and having someone accuse you of being flirtatious, and being actively flirtatious with intent to cheat or make your partner jealous. And I don't think it's as cut-and-dried as you want to make it in this thread.

If you think that you have been flirtatious in the past and that you've inadvertently hurt some people or led them on, then I think it's cool for you to realize that about yourself and make an effort to change your stripes. But I think you have to keep in mind that not everyone will see things the same way--even people that you CAN trust, and who ARE reasonable and moral. It seems strange to me that you're determined to make everyone come to the same conclusion, when there are so many variables. One being that sometimes, no matter what you do to avoid it, some people will misread your signals, because they are not familiar with what your flirting mode looks like. You can avoid all possible ambiguity by completely toning down your personality and changing your style of interaction, going out of your way to avoid women altogether, etc., but how enjoyable is that going to be for you, in the long run?

Obviously, I'm not saying to not be considerate of your SO--to me, as long as you're thinking about those ramifications, and how she might feel, you're on the right track. You could probably even cut yourself some slack.


clap.gif
very well said...
 

Salomé

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If you don't get me some water or food soon I'm going to pass out.
*throws water on AJ*

Is this flirting? ;)

Amargith said:
When I first learned about how flirting worked, I had no idea what I was doing or how it affected people....
OK, so now you're up front, it no longer has that effect?
I'm not sure it's that simple.
 

Lauren Ashley

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But they are also really good at not seeing what's right in front of them when they don't want to, or of justifying their behaviour as above reproach and "other-centred". Does my head in, because I'm almost always right about how it is going to do down, but we all have our blind spots.

+1

It seems when I question an EXFP's behavior, to understand why they have done something, they will get angry and make a big fuss instead of just answering the question. They say "I don't feel as if I should have to explain my behavior to you!" or "That's really not your business." Okay...that's not answering the question. I'm not criticizing, just inquiring.
 

Amargith

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*throws water on AJ*

Is this flirting? ;)

OK, so now you're up front, it no longer has that effect?
I'm not sure it's that simple.

No, you're quite right. But I do keep tabs on it. If I notice that the other person doesn't handle it well, I stop on my own and confront them with it, so I can catch it in time. It happens quite rarely though. I'm not that irresistable that every guy feels the need to fall in love with me. Most just enjoy the closeness and company, which is exactly what I enjoy as well.
 

Salomé

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It occurs to me that perhaps F-driven flirting *is* broadly about making connections. There isn't really much thought given to consequences. It's pretty spontaneous and driven by empathy. T-driven flirting is perhaps more strategic, more about analyzing the "rules" of the game and perfecting the play. Perhaps that's why Ts like Synarch and myself are quick to judge the behaviour more cynically?

That's not to say that F-types don't flirt strategically or vice-versa.

I've been trying to understand my own objections, and I think it comes down to this: the function of flirtatious behaviour in human society is broadly the same as that of courtship behaviour in lower animals - it signals sexual availability/desirability, and helps with pair-bonding.

I guess it's the dishonesty of falsely signaling sexual availability that bothers me. If you tell someone you're taken, but you *signal* availability. You are sending out mixed messages. And we all know 90% of communication is non-verbal.

I used to be paranoid about not sending out the wrong signals and so avoided anything that might be construed as flirtatious either in dress or behaviour. That's pretty boring though and cramps one's style too severely. But INTPs are pretty unavailable people in most respects. I don't like making a display of myself for the attention of random people and I don't want to pretend to be available when I'm not. So I don't really understand that impulse. ENFPs are much happier about putting on a show - you only have to look at all the self-avatars and photos posted here, as well as the expansive and animated way that they use language/emoticons/gestures to see that.

They are just naturally "skilled" at this kind of courtship display, but the inappropriateness of the context is sometimes lost on them.
 
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