[ENFP] ENFPs: Hopeless Flirts?

[jenocyde]

You're not really helping the cause of the flirters.

You mean, not helping the cause of the cheaters... let's just be fair about that.

 

[Synarch]

You mean, not helping the cause of the cheaters... let's just be fair about that.

I don't know. The only times we have heard from people who have SO's who flirt or have in the past, it has resulted in cheating. We keep hearing from the people who flirt and rarely from their mates or from people who have SO's who flirt.

I think it comes down to this. EXXP types are likely to be rather approachable and if they're not careful it can get them in trouble. As a result, they should probably be with J types who have a more rigid concept of boundaries. Most of this can come down to boundary issues. ENFP's and EXXP's in general suffer from issues with boundaries: improper self-disclosure, being nosey, flirtatiousness, etc.

 

[Gamine]

That isn't flirting though as I understood we were discussing it... I engage with people the way you have described as well. I am all for building warm relationships!

You'd think it would be a normal thing, and I adore people like you who do this everyday. You break up the monotomy of daily life The EN_P (ugh) style of social interaction is very often misunderstood as flirting, because it is the amount and severity of attention. I like to think about it like how we think about corruption in foreign markets for business ventures. How arbitrary is the corruption (flirtation) and how pervasive is the corruption (flirtation)?

I have a table for this.... but typec does not want me loading it

 

[sculpting]

if the boundaries were not defined by the SJs in the world would the eXXPs still be considered to cross the boundaries?

 

[soleil]

On the accusal of enfp flirting, I have a theory.

We are all so separated by our own perceptions of differences from each other (that "otherness" feeling) that when someone (like an awesome ENFP) can cut through the garbage and engage someone, look them in the eyes, really listen to them, it is so alien to their normal interactions that it can only be understood as flirting. These are normal interactions for these people, and they are truly interested and empathetic. I think this accusal and issue says a lot more about our collective loneliness and human desire for attention and appreciation, than it does the limitations of social conduct.

I would ideally like to see more people taking social cues from ENFPesque people and forgetting about barriers to truly connect. While an ENFP might be criticized for being superficial and flighty in their relationships, I'm grateful they are able to spread so much of their brand of love around, because apparently we need it. Asking someone questions, listening to them, and being somehow emotional invested in someone should not be flirting.

Yes exactly. People often take this as flirting/giving off mixed signals. I barely look people in the eyes anymore. This definitely has caused me to withdraw from people. I hate when my intentions are misunderstood. The most flirting I do is smile when someone smiles at me.

 

[jenocyde]

I don't know. The only times we have heard from people who have SO's who flirt or have in the past, it has resulted in cheating. We keep hearing from the people who flirt and rarely from their mates or from people who have SO's who flirt.

Yes, there were like +/- 4 people in this thread that said flirting and cheating were a part of their relationship.

But we didn't ask everyone who had ever been cheated on if there was blatant flirting in the relationship prior to that. And we didn't ask all those who admitted to flirting if they had ever cheated as a result of that. And more importantly, we didn't ask the people where flirting does not happen in their relationship - so they are no indicators that cheating may be going on - but are being cheated on anyway.

There are so many variables...

 

[Serendipity]

I am honest with my intentions and I never enter a monogamous relationship due to the fact that I do have feelings for many. Different kinds of romantic feelings but of the romantic kind; it is.

I wouldn't be able to bear on knowing that I had "cheated" on someone. That's just awful.

 

[Synarch]

if the boundaries were not defined by the SJs in the world would the eXXPs still be considered to cross the boundaries?

SJ's define all the boundaries? Boundaries don't just exist as defined by right and wrong? I just think the J types are better at recognizing and adhering to them.

 

[Synarch]

Yes, there were like +/- 4 people in this thread that said flirting and cheating were a part of their relationship.

But we didn't ask everyone who had ever been cheated on if there was blatant flirting in the relationship prior to that. And we didn't ask all those who admitted to flirting if they had ever cheated as a result of that. And more importantly, we didn't ask the people where flirting does not happen in their relationship - so they are no indicators that cheating may be going on - but are being cheated on anyway.

There are so many variables...

Kinda curious how you can enter into infidelity without flirtatious sexual or romantic gestures? If you maintain distance romantically and sexually, it would be pretty difficult to cheat.

 

[Serendipity]

SJ's define all the boundaries? Boundaries don't just exist as defined by right and wrong? I just think the J types are better at recognizing and adhering to them.

How does one know right from wrong then?
And is right/wrong the same for everyone? I think not.

 

[jenocyde]

Kinda curious how you can enter into infidelity without flirtatious sexual or romantic gestures? If you maintain distance romantically and sexually, it would be pretty difficult to cheat.

You could hire a prostitute. Which a lot of (married) men do.

Also, I don't think we were talking about a man going into a bar one night on a business trip and flirts with the specific intention of cheating on his wife that night. I thought we were speaking about people who are generally flirtatious in nature.

 

[Synarch]

How does one know right from wrong then?
And is right/wrong the same for everyone? I think not.

Ethics are founded on first principles, for example, that human life has value, that you should avoid hurting someone, etc. These first principles are beyond argument, imo. You can then extrapolate right and wrong from there.

I believe in moral absolutes. Many people do not. This does not mean I always behave consistently with what is moral, but I do recognize it. If there is no right or wrong then you cannot really argue one side over another. It's whatever works for you. I do think right or wrong is the same no matter who it involves, but I am willing to accept that I may be in the minority.

 

[Salomé]

SJ's define all the boundaries? Boundaries don't just exist as defined by right and wrong? I just think the J types are better at recognizing and adhering to them.

J <> moral superiority!

EXXP types are likely to be rather approachable and if they're not careful it can get them in trouble. As a result, they should probably be with J types who have a more rigid concept of boundaries. Most of this can come down to boundary issues. ENFP's and EXXP's in general suffer from issues with boundaries: improper self-disclosure, being nosey, flirtatiousness, etc.

Rubbish. A cheater will cheat on a J or a P.

Ethics are founded on first principles, for example, that human life has value, that you should avoid hurting someone, etc. These first principles are beyond argument, imo. You can then extrapolate right and wrong from there.

I believe in moral absolutes. Many people do not. This does not mean I always behave consistently with what is moral, but I do recognize it. If there is no right or wrong then you cannot really argue one side over another. It's whatever works for you. I do think right or wrong is the same no matter who it involves, but I am willing to accept that I may be in the minority.

Agreed.

 

[Synarch]

You could hire a prostitute. Which a lot of (married) men do.

Also, I don't think we were talking about a man going into a bar one night on a business trip and flirts with the specific intention of cheating on his wife that night. I thought we were speaking about people who are generally flirtatious in nature.

Sure, this is what I am talking about as well. I just think general flirtatiousness is a slippery slope BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL OCCASIONALLY TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY.

It's like if I went into a gay nightclub with a shirt that said "I am gay". Whose responsibility is it if a man hits on me? Should I be surprised? Should I try to maintain that it is harmless?

Flirting is like advertising your availability or at least the suggestion of availability. Flirting, by definition, is sexual or romantic in nature.

 

[Serendipity]

Ethics are founded on first principles, for example, that human life has value, that you should avoid hurting someone, etc. These first principles are beyond argument, imo. You can then extrapolate right and wrong from there.

Agreed.


Moral absolutes? Elaborate please.

 

[Synarch]

J
Rubbish. A cheater will cheat on a J or a P.

True. You're right. But, I think a J would be less likely to compromise their values. Less flexible.

 

[sculpting]

SJ's define all the boundaries? Boundaries don't just exist as defined by right and wrong? I just think the J types are better at recognizing and adhering to them.

I live and die by Fi. Which means I seem to have my own definition of what boundaries I choose to follow or set. right and wrong is pretty black and white and likely my boundaries and your boundaries would vary by definition.

this whole flirting discussion is haunted by shades of grey.

did they realize they were flirting?
is it intentional?
is it sexual in nature or just friendly?
would then then follow through?
why do they flirt?

it's a messy place and a messy discussion. I am going running now. Bye bye and have fun guys!!

 

[Synarch]

Moral absolutes? Elaborate please.

Moral absolutes = things that are true from a moral perspective whether or not you agree with them. They are absolutely true even if no one supports them. They are beyond human judgment.

 

[Synarch]

I live and die by Fi. Which means I seem to have my own definition of what boundaries I choose to follow or set. right and wrong is pretty black and white and likely my boundaries and your boundaries would vary by definition.

this whole flirting discussion is haunted by shades of grey.

did they realize they were flirting?
is it intentional?
is it sexual in nature or just friendly?
would then then follow through?
why do they flirt?

it's a messy place and a messy discussion. I am going running now. Bye bye and have fun guys!!

We're talking about the dictionary definition of flirting, ie interactions laced with sexual or romantic tones.

 

[Serendipity]

Moral absolutes = things that are true from a moral perspective whether or not you agree with them. They are absolutely true even if no one supports them. They are beyond human judgment.

Could you name a few absolutes?
(Just curious. :3 )