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View Poll Results: whats the general nature of people...NT perspective

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  • people are all good, they just have some bad habits and tendencies

    24 58.54%
  • people have bad intentions to begin with. they wont be nice unless its rewarded

    17 41.46%
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  1. #11
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    yet, the sharing of the beer makes YOU happy
    thats true, in the sense that there always is a self, but all the point of the word selfishness is that of defining what "self" is. that is to say, selfishness is not defined as "something that happens for a causal cause", because that is always the case for anything, even for matter which is not commonly described as selfish. the word selfishness really referrers to the narrow self of a single perspective, that is even less that a single person, cause we know, we hurt our-selves for selfishness all the time.

    if you are happy for a tactical reason though, you are not truly happy, but if you are truly happy because you enjoy common happiness, than happiness itself rules both you and the mate, so happiness it self becomes the common self, the broader self, even the nondual self.

    and its not defined as non dual, because of a metaphysical assumption about an energetic link between two people, and not because of the assumption of a direct causal link, ie one happiness triggers the other happiness, it is defined like that, because of how happiness it self works, generally or abstractly. it just works TM.

    cause that is human nature. so the selflessness of joined happiness is the ultimate product of the function of every single happiness. happiness strives to nonduality, because that way, it is just bigger. its only happiness, if you share it. thats the programming of heartfelt happiness.

    its irrelevant who of two people smiled first, because what was actually first, was human nature, the heart, which programmed them, to find, that joined smiling is more happy than smiling alone. so that is the actual causality, that embraces the striving for nonduality everywhere in the relative world, especially in human nature. its hunting you down, and then it kills you.



  2. #12
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    People are idiotic, but not morally bad. Not completely morally good.

  3. #13

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    People start good, but have different things that drive them. One thing I've noticed from MBTi is most problems between types are differences in perspective, rather than conflicts. All seem to have the goal of improving things, they just have a different idea of perfection. It can be logical perfection; perfection of order, consistency; perfection of love and connection, perfection of freedom, perfection of interaction, perfecting the right to be imperfect , etc.

    Given different reasons and pressures the best options according to people, are sometimes damaging or horrific. Some people blame it on psychological disorders, sometimes it is just too much pressure and suddenly something like murder moves to the top of the best options list. The greatest of good and the worst of evil are in all of us. Given the right situation, everyone can snap.

    I don't like the words "good" and "evil" either, but my point is the acts they describe are in all of us, not just the few who end up committing them. We work to move ourselves into a position where we can deal with situations well enough to avoid ever committing these crimes, but sometimes people's drive to it becomes inevitable. This isn't talking in terms of having empathy or not, people normally don't commit crimes impartially. They know how horrific it is, what they are doing, they just see it as a must for survival, and don't see the other path. It is the return of those primal instincts. There are the few psychopaths who do it for fun or sport, but most murders have motives. Even Hitler, Mao etc. had motives to improve something (though being naive, destructive and delusional ones).
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  4. #14
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    People start good,
    i dont have the impression that i started good. but last year i was laughing uninterruptedly for at least 5 minutes once, for no good reason, this year it happened again, without any reason (hard to tell), so there is hope ....

  5. #15

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    . Yeh, probably neither good or evil. I just meant good in the sense of not evil, rather than really good. I still think we have positive motives in general. Or at least the will to be constructive and improve things, rather than destructive.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Kyrielle's Avatar
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    People are neither inherently good nor inherently bad, they are people. That is the amazing thing about people...they can go from one end of the spectrum to the other. Is there a good and bad? From an individual's perspective, yes, to some degree there is a defined element of "good" and "bad" or..."beneficial" and "non-beneficial" to the self. Society's perception of "good" and "bad" stems from a collaborative agreement on similar subjective principles that would cause productivity or disorder in that society.

    But it is a foolish thing to assume someone is good or bad. Even a psychopath is not necessarily bad. Harmful to society? Yes. Bad on a basic and inherent level? No.
    "I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference."

    Robert Frost

  7. #17
    Wild Card Atomic Fiend's Avatar
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    People in general are retarded, but not bad.

  8. #18
    movin melodies kiddykat's Avatar
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    Nanook, totally agreed. I think it is important to choose our philosophies wisely. it's about perception?

  9. #19
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    not sure if you are asking me something? well, it certainly is not about believes. it is about nature, which structurally creates and supports more and more perspectives in a somewhat "regular" way (ie not chaotic), so yeah, perception nails it somewhat down. the eastern wisdom traditions depend on nothing but the experience that one has from inside the human brain, so there is no believe in that at all, which also means, that we cant just choose the proper perception/perspective, but we can work towards or against structural (perspectival) growth. and explanation of why it works is technically irrelevant. and descriptive interpretation of how it works is self contained in the growth. but believe in such explanations helps to motivate us on the way. or any sneak preview. like closely looking at how it actually feels to be happy or to laugh.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Azseroffs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    People, in general, are selfish, not bad.
    People, in their entirety, are selfish. People do apparently selfless things because it makes them feel better about themselves, so technically it is for their own benefit. How "good" or "bad" someone is depends on how much they relate to others and how inclined they are to act on that relation. In other words, people are as good or bad as their conscience.

    edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Rachelinpa View Post
    people have bad intentions to begin with. they wont be nice unless its rewarded

    Without getting to a big argument about defining good and bad (which I think is relative anyhow)... I think people are naturally inclined to be selfish or "bad." Even what most people consider "selfless" is selfish in itself -- for example, you share your beer with your roommate to be nice not expecting anything in return... yet, the sharing of the beer makes YOU happy (you may even do it as an act of friendship to earn his company in return -- of course I, ENFP, would NEVER do this...). Selfish regardless of how much thought went into it. This is obviously a more cynical view, but I think it holds.
    I read this after the post. That's basically what I was trying to say.
    I wouldn't say selfishness is necessarily bad though. By definition, it is good from the self's point of view. Like everyone has been saying, good and bad are relative.
    Well, unless you believe in god. Then your god defines good and bad, which would usually(depending on religion) mean that everyone is bad and will only do nice things if rewarded.
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