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Thread: Manipulation.

  1. #1
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Default Manipulation.

    I checked: on the MBTI model, all official Fi-users (the MBTI FPs and TJs) have Te in the top four. So I suspect/hypothesize/wildly guess this:

    when an Fi user starts talking about feelings, it comes out Te-flavoured.

    (And someone else'll have to disprove that because everything I'll ever say will come out Te-flavoured and I wouldn't know.)

    So...

    that might be the origin of Fi-users claims that Fe-users manipulate. Because Fe doesn't hear Te.

    It goes something like: an Fi-user makes some feeling claim, possibly some claim of ownership and a requirement of respect, and Fe keeps on keeping on because it hasn't heard anything that feels like feeling, so Fi is all, like, WTF?! Aren't you listening? And Fe says, I'm listening, I respect your feelings, I'm *smile*, so let's [insert some Fe requirement here].


    Or am I just picking on the cripples again?

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    Senior Member plaguerat's Avatar
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    naw. I can see that, though there may be a difference between unintentional manipulation and purposeful manipulation.
    haha, but I wouldn't know anything about that
    VI VERI VENIVERSUM VIVUS VIVCI
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  3. #3
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    It's just a wild guess based on a thing coming back to haunt me, that Fe users are nonplussed at being called manipulative. Because, see, it's so obvious to me that if someone says they feel manipulated, isn't it then the oddest thing in the world to go ahead and tell them they aren't being manipulated?

    So why would Fi specifically call manipulation? How could it? What would count as manipulation?

    Having your inner voice worked on while your outer voice is ignored? If someone were warned to stop but didn't? Wouldn't you go ahead and say something sneaky were going on?





    And as a sort of bonus, there was also raised the extra issue of what the hell is the outer voice of Fi anyway? What does it sound like? Technically it should sound like an "e" function of some kind, right?

  4. #4
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    The weird thing about it is, I guess, since discovering the MBTI, I've discovered all these guarded camps around me. How is it that there's so much mystery about these things, or is it just me?

    Feeling. It's freaky.

    Philosophy doesn't have it properly labelled either.

    Frankly, who knew people were walking around with all this sensitivity crap. And making it mysterious and affective.

    Does it truly have no voice? You just gotta... feel?



    This post brought to you by Te in association with Ni and a turned off Fi. I thangu.

  5. #5
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    i don't know what exactly the criticism or objection being posed is.

    Te writes a logical proof to try to create/effect some situation
    Fe writes a plausible story to try to change/affect some situation

    they're both trying to express their own desire to make something happen, i think you're more pissed that your Fi is meek in the exterior world and you find your values being smacked around in ways that your Te can't defend, bc in some social contests/contexts it is weaker than Fe.

    the context of the situation can make wrong right, which sucks no matter what function comes out on top.

    i find that sensitivity and all this feeling crap has to do with understanding what goes on in the interior of another human being. how things fit together, understanding how context shapes and affects humans in a physical, psychological, emotional, almost musical way. it is a distinctly SOCIAL outgrowth/evolutionary response. it also primes the pump for various like modes or meaningful frames of communication. it sets up a space for people to connect in specific ways, ensure that the meaning is being properly communicated, redundancy is created in the other, a specific dialect of language for specific types of experience.

  6. #6
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i don't know what exactly the criticism or objection being posed is.
    I'll always speak Fi-flavoured Te, no matter what. (Or make Fi-flavoured plans and Se-seek situations for them.) Thus, presumably, I'll always see that as what it means to "express feeling." And I tend to get pissed off when these plans and directives are not at least considered. That too would be "expressing feeling" (or maybe just "having feelings").

    The criticism isn't criticism per se. Fi-flavoured Te's telling me Fe has rights too so oughtn't to be shut down. But Te's also telling me to get efficient and try and work out why there's this butting heads/frustration/subversion things going on, and how to address it. (And then tell everybody, and then the problem's solved, la lala lala la.)

    So, kinda just trying to work out what the system is and why it works that way.

    Plus, being around FJs is tiring because none of my answers address their issues, and if they have better Se than me, I'm screwed. Royally. Oh yes, royally. (Y'ever feel what it's like to have anything you say and do be nought but grist for an Se-grabber serving Te-goals? That's the way it works for me around NFJs, except the Se-grabber has Fe-goals.)

    Not entirely sure it's just me, me, me. Observation seems to show two kinds of camp out there. I can see it in classes by looking at who sits with whom. And sometimes listening to people talk about relationships seems to bring it out too. The whole world gets to looking like factions and camps.

    Te writes a logical proof to try to create/effect some situation
    Fe writes a plausible story to try to change/affect some situation

    they're both trying to express their own desire to make something happen, i think you're more pissed that your Fi is meek in the exterior world and you find your values being smacked around in ways that your Te can't defend, bc in some social contests/contexts it is weaker than Fe.
    That my Se can't locate a foothold for the Te advance because somebody else is occupying the ground. But yeah. I guess.

    the context of the situation can make wrong right, which sucks no matter what function comes out on top.
    Fe user! The people in the context can make wrong be their choice. Because they're comfortable with it and enjoying themselves.

    i find that sensitivity and all this feeling crap has to do with understanding what goes on in the interior of another human being. how things fit together, understanding how context shapes and affects humans in a physical, psychological, emotional, almost musical way. it is a distinctly SOCIAL outgrowth/evolutionary response. it also primes the pump for various like modes or meaningful frames of communication. it sets up a space for people to connect in specific ways, ensure that the meaning is being properly communicated, redundancy is created in the other, a specific dialect of language for specific types of experience.
    :footballreferee: Hmmm, close, really close. A little Fe-flavoured, but I can agree that awareness of Fi would work that way too.

    An-n-n-d... does it or doesn't it ensure that Fi and Fe have a harder time getting each other than do i on i or e subsuming e, the pump being primed by what the pump feels?


    Or do the two camps actually get each other and I'm just being Unabomber about this?


    Proper test: pair an INTJ with an ENTP and an ENFP, and pair an INFJ with an ENFP and an ENTP, and everyone report back after six months. Whoever shows most ligature marks... wins?

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    Kalach: You're an odd sort.

    I think this is good.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  8. #8
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Are we suggesting the answers to these questions are obvious?

    Actually, if there were a type destined to know the meaning and answers to these issues, it would be the INFJ counsellors: interest -> experience -> insight.


    So-o-o-... whatcha got?

  9. #9
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Or am I just picking on the cripples again?
    ohhhhh, hhehehehe, youu are so funnnyyy!

    I am learning that what I detest (sorry I know it's strong phrasing) more than anything else is a strong Fe. I can't hang with the ENFJs much. When the ENTPs overuse it I can feel it and it makes my skin crawl.

    Fi is like a super Fe bullshit detector. It "feels" Fe trying to control and direct and it is very resentful of that control. It feels manipulated and then pulls out a tertiary Te to kick some ass and rebel. Feeling an Fe playing me and trying to direct me causes a direct defensive Te attack.

    Maybe because Fi on it's own feels so independentt with a very live and let live philosophy. As long as you do not cause pain in others than you should be free to do what makes you happy. (Likely Fi is a biologically, evolutionarilly, derived empathy tool planted to make me help others in times of duress to strengthan social bonds and obligations. So it doesnt really give a shit, till someone else hurts, then it mirrors that hurt and I end up in pain. It's very hands off till then. Fi is like , fuck, entangled quantum particles or something when it comes to other's pain (Was that Te flavored?))

  10. #10
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach;591987


    [size=1
    And as a sort of bonus, there was also raised the extra issue of what the hell is the outer voice of Fi anyway? What does it sound like? Technically it should sound like an "e" function of some kind, right?[/size]
    Fi externalized?

    Shit that's not simple.

    Glowing idealism? No, that has a Te ring to it huh?

    Fi ,when good, is a childlike, quality, of love that overflows, like a river into all the empty spots around me externally. It finds the holes and crannies and nooks, and fills then up with this glow. I can't speak Fi so well, but I use it to disarm fairly well, especially with other's like INTJs who have a wee bit of Fi. I walk up to them and I smile and I relax all defenses and just glow at them. I can't say it is manipulation as, in that moment, I love them. I care for them and I would do whatever it takes to help them/hold them/embrace them. Nah, I actually usually love them forever after that. They have become part of my clan. Fi has no bottom, it doesn't run out, it wants the best for everyone.

    Fi, when good, allows for the other to have whatever faults they have and loves them in spite of those flaws, recognizing that thier is beauty in every flaw. Wait maybe that's Ne-Fi seeing the potential in everyone.

    Fi, when bad, really turns upon itself and can be horrowing.

    Fi, also is a big fan of physical contact and cuddles, so can be clingy. Through touch-since it is introverted-it can sneak out and spead it's cuddly love message.

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