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Thread: Manipulation.

  1. #21
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    the subjective ideals, values, and beliefs of Fi are enacted upon all the time. they drive Fi dom and even auxilary types. they fuck with others all the time, albeit in a more indirect, informing kind of way. their beliefs are often really retarded. they effect us all, who, as a society, have to function together. this free spirit thing is great blah blah but meanwhile corporations own the world and force their mission statements and their sell by the script on us all. the world needs effective communication just like it needs pragmatic types, just like it needs deeply healing, complex, humane, interwoven Fi types. Fi often suffers for the strength it develops, it can be a beautiful thing. it's like it's its own human photosynthesis process. but it's also passion of the christ martyrdom and inane religious ideals that pollute the world and inspire emotional bombs that keep blowing shit up. Ti feels like an inane Fi bullshit detector when it comes to dumb ideals that get in the way of social progress, change, betterment, objectivity, etc. and yes, behind these terrorfying ideals Fe is probably there to help spread the message and Te is probably there to conquer all in the name of it. so no judging FUNCTION is free of blame, if you really feel the need to blame cognitive functions instead of human beings, socio-cultural choices, ethics/aesthetic expressions, etc.

    !
    Sorry, state, I am working through the functions in a very reductionist, model approach right now. I seem to have set off a nerve, my apologies.

    In the past I have seen Fe be irritating to me through ENFJs primarily, but only in the last few weeks have I seen it be used for profound manipulation of others. I have had it attempted on me. It was sort of hollow and silly bt attempted all the same. My views are colored for now.

    It's interesting what you say as my entp friend has a reasonable tertiary Fe that she uses unconciously to get groups to get along and work together. Our worst fights have been when we are working together and we both move to a more tertiary functioning level due to stress. It can be bloody when her Ti-Fe meets my Fi-Te.

    However I roam around with my Fi and can get more folks to contribute to the cause more wholeheartedly than she can. Folks know that I will only ask of them what I believe in and they know that my ideas and beliefs can be trusted. I inspire them and then she orients them. We are a kick-ass tag team most days.

  2. #22
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i think i better understand your frustrations. Fe creates plausible stories of emotional experience and can use those to manipulate others. the objective "for the greater good" is undermined by constantly shifting emotional propaganda that is just as directive and agenda-oriented as Te. as introverts who rely primarily on one extraverted function (Je), sometimes we feel worried and paranoid that, in the heat of the moment, we might just be fucked (my two best functions are introverted, and between what you're saying and another intj girl i'm very close to, i agree having inferior Se creates paranoia when we do not have confidence in our extraverted good-information grabbing ability).

    one of the best advantages of Fe, to me, is that we know how to articulate BETWEEN parties. we are excellent mediators. we can absorb and internalize the languages of others, know how to express things in (what we imagine to be) their own words. this makes us crafty communicators, and sometimes this can be yet another tool used to DIRECT the social group too much by a single will. fascist, dictatorial, tyrannical, etc. it sucks getting bent over by a group of crazed people all jacked up on their shared motive and sense of superiority, certainty, etc. the dinosaurs didn't want to die out either.

    this seems like one of those situations where you need to try to maximize your power and defuse the bomb. sometimes the social group stomps on some of its so-called members. i don't think any of us are free from the tangled possibility. social life can be disgusting and degrading for us introverts, who feel very strongly we know things should be another (better!) way than this.



    the subjective ideals, values, and beliefs of Fi are enacted upon all the time. they drive Fi dom and even auxilary types. they fuck with others all the time, albeit in a more indirect, informing kind of way. their beliefs are often really retarded. they effect us all, who, as a society, have to function together. this free spirit thing is great blah blah but meanwhile corporations own the world and force their mission statements and their sell by the script on us all. the world needs effective communication just like it needs pragmatic types, just like it needs deeply healing, complex, humane, interwoven Fi types. Fi often suffers for the strength it develops, it can be a beautiful thing. it's like it's its own human photosynthesis process. but it's also passion of the christ martyrdom and inane religious ideals that pollute the world and inspire emotional bombs that keep blowing shit up. Ti feels like an inane Fi bullshit detector when it comes to dumb ideals that get in the way of social progress, change, betterment, objectivity, etc. and yes, behind these terrorfying ideals Fe is probably there to help spread the message and Te is probably there to conquer all in the name of it. so no judging FUNCTION is free of blame, if you really feel the need to blame cognitive functions instead of human beings, socio-cultural choices, ethics/aesthetic expressions, etc.



    i think you've pinpointed the problem of Fe/Fi pretty well. Fe wants articulation and expression of feelings. it does not know how to respond or react without expression. it wants people to communicate and connect. it wants to bridge gaps and understand. yet it is Je, an extraverted judging function. so sometimes it can fuck people over in assertive, aggressive, bordering violent ways. same with Te. Ne is craftier to have as your first extraverted function. hence its awesomeness (and why i love spending time and connecting with Ne people). but i have to connect, otherwise, i have nothing to extravert, communicate, put forth, contribute, etc. it is how i express myself and my desires.

    Fi gets way overrated, and i say that from a perspective knowing it is like a protein my body cannot synthesize on its own, that i desperately crave and need so i'm not slamming it. the problem with Fi is that Fi users often times seem totally unable to see the limitations it imposes on them. they see Fi functioning/operation as being indomitably RIGHT, in a moral sense, as if they alone live in the best way according to empty generalized abstracts like "human nature" and ethical codes of the golden rule. this, at times, lacks complexity. at other times it can be the perfect SIMPLIFICATION that is needed, it is the bringer of faith and certainty when such things struggle to exist. it is not nearly live and let live in most Fi users as they seem to think, but often times, it is still GOOD. Fi is informative which can too devolve into passive aggressive manipulation and a heavy oppressive weight on others as their unexpressed feelings leak out and poison the room with toxic gas. it's there too.

    but absolutely the continued desire for fj Fe to push and direct and incite articulation and expression of feeling can conflict almost absolutely with the Fp desire to sort out, weigh, and work thru feelings in their own language, healing/purifying them, before they put them forth out into the world.



    well it sounds like infjs are less of a problem for you, altho they are just as directive. in my experience with intjs the extra Ti and reliance on introversion makes their sudden judgments and authoritative tone more palattable for them. we have to communicate, but we both can deal with directness.

    the enfj situation, if you're getting ganged up on, that might be one of those situations where you have to just keep letting it go. or re-route your office politics. if its in the context of a one-to-one relationship, maybe you just need to kick some ass. with nfjs who have a conscience, one of their best moments to realize they are in fact wrong and understand the needs of others in a new way is when they are hurt, licked, wounded. my head can get a bit big when things are going very well and i begin to spend less and less effort on considering the feelings of others. then something happens and i realize i have to do right by the other person, fix the situation, make it up to them, be more attentive and consider their feelings more. with an Fe dom enfj and an Fi ter intj, i'm guessing they ADAMANTLY believe they KNOW your feelings better than you do. i am guilty of said hubris at times myself. especially when feelings are under-expressed, when we do not see them articulated and communicated, we begin to guess and use our intuition to think we have pinpointed and grasped the hints and allegations underlying these unsaid feelings. we start to attempt to sketch them, but we will adjust if we see that we are wrong wrong wrong. we have to, unless we are in fact monsters. in which case, RUN!
    State, you communicator, you! I quoted above only the valuable bits of what you said. () I really, really appreciate the sense that there's a perspective like this one. (I honestly think you may be erring on the humble side a little re Fe, but the whole piece had teeth, which to me is a sign of reality. Like it.)

  3. #23
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    State, you communicator, you! I quoted above only the valuable bits of what you said. () I really, really appreciate the sense that there's a perspective like this one. (I honestly think you may be erring on the humble side a little re Fe, but the whole piece had teeth, which to me is a sign of reality. Like it.)
    good, now we're even. your posts have significantly helped me with an intj relationship that is very important to me, and it's great to have something useful to share as far as what i've learned as a result.

    if i'm humble about Fe it's bc most of my life i hated it. i wanted purity of ideals, system-level solutions, ethical perfectionism, etc. it seemed sleazy to me, so i didn't use it, didn't extravert, and didn't really engage. however, i've learned that both Je functions are like this. and all Ji sorting and compiling functions can take wrong turns too. judgment is one of those things, you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. people do the best they can, what is right is an equation too complex for any language ever created, and yet too simple for words when you let go of the need to be perfectly pure and allow yourself to learn and refine yourself and your identity thru experience.

    happy puppy, no worries. i, like, kalach, just get frustrated when i see things going in the direction of two Opposing Camps that must always be at odds ends. when a more seamless integration of Fi and Fe is needed so we can hold off the evil Ti-Te types, the sensors, and all other evils plaguing our society!!! i find it really pertinent, bc we need better communication between types and an understanding of health, ethical standards, interaction styles, etc that make up and regulate social games.

    believe me i recognize as well as anyone how colourless the world would appear without Fi. Fe makes it move, travel, and evolve. it's like a pitch-shifter. it changes tone and texture to expand or contract the symbolic expression of Fi. refract it thru different prisms, change the musical arrangement, etc.

  4. #24
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    As far as superpowers go Fi and Fe are pretty cool.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  5. #25
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    I like this phrase, "plausible emotional stories".

    Dunno why I like it, but I like it.

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