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Thread: Manipulation.

  1. #11
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Hey, look who's back and hasn't been drinking.

    Good manipulation:

    The other day I happened upon two neighbours standing in the stairwell, agitated. They were discussing an ex-colleague of ours who is back in the area. From the INTJ perspective that ex-colleague is a menace. She has an astonishing array of personal problems and has been medicating them for decades. She is now a full-blown, reckless and aggressive alcoholic, and incidental people abuser. The neighbours are both mature fellas, one ISFP and 50, the other XXXX and in his forties I guess. They have both been imposed upon in the past by the ex-colleague. The mere thought of her had them both in a tizzy. I have never seen the ISFP talk so fast nor look so jumpy. The whole thing was infecting me too, at least because a young INFJ elsewhere has been trying to help the alcoholic and consulting sometimes with me, not that I can offer any thoughts other than warning her she's right to feel used.

    So there we were, three grown men anxious and afraid and talking fast. And out of her house comes another colleague, 67, and it's a hard call at that age, but I'm going with ENFJ because she's got the tension, the woe-is-me sometimes, and the personal authority. (And the groups of people around her she dips in and out of for meaning and relaxation.)

    Long story short, she calmed everyone down by taking over the conversation and somehow or other ending up telling soporific, mildly uplifting stories about her time in Africa. Force majeure, and it worked. I felt the burden lift. All four of us were able to go away and be about our business.

  2. #12
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Kalach,
    I think you have a point. A very good point. I like it.

    Hmmm...Fe seems manipulative because you can see the thought processes behind it. It's kinda clunky sometimes, but then I'm probably speaking of Fe-tertiary users.
    I also find Fe user have a tendency to overlook other's feelings if they deem it out of context with the situation, and expect certain emotions to be express in other situations and are most disconcerted when those feelings aren't. Occasionally I find they over simplify emotions at times.
    I don't know, doesn't it scream fake to you, that in certain situations these are the feelings you should be expressing, regardless of Wether you are feeling them or not? It's like playing dress up really.
    BTW to all Fe users, these are just fleeting thoughts of mine...to be taken with a pinch of salt.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

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  3. #13
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Kalach, I usually follow what you're saying but I'm not quite sure what you're getting at this time. Are you saying the way the FJs you work with handle situations isn't efficient (as you'd like) and when you go to point this out to them you get smacked down? Functionally, you are trampling on what these FJs to be their strong point which is dealing with people. And you know there's a difference between Te Efficient and Fe Efficient? You phrased your OP as if Fe is the oblivious offensive party, but it cuts both ways. It's like Fe is Walmart gobbling up the Fi mom and pops. And god-forbid Fi wants to unionize!

    What are the Fe/FJs doing to you other than just existing? Ideally, what would you want them to do? I'm asking you to sit back and objectively look at what they are doing. Concretely and specifically. Some things aren't concrete...how do you But all of the FJs do this? None of them are what you would consider reasonable? How is that even possible? I'm sorry but I really can't see that all the FJs you deal with are purposely out to crush you. You seem really sensitive (maybe oversensitive) to any communication via Fe.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  4. #14
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Hey, look who's back and hasn't been drinking.

    Good manipulation:

    The other day I happened upon two neighbours standing in the stairwell, agitated. They were discussing an ex-colleague of ours who is back in the area. From the INTJ perspective that ex-colleague is a menace. She has an astonishing array of personal problems and has been medicating them for decades. She is now a full-blown, reckless and aggressive alcoholic, and incidental people abuser. The neighbours are both mature fellas, one ISFP and 50, the other XXXX and in his forties I guess. They have both been imposed upon in the past by the ex-colleague. The mere thought of her had them both in a tizzy. I have never seen the ISFP talk so fast nor look so jumpy. The whole thing was infecting me too, at least because a young INFJ elsewhere has been trying to help the alcoholic and consulting sometimes with me, not that I can offer any thoughts other than warning her she's right to feel used.

    So there we were, three grown men anxious and afraid and talking fast. And out of her house comes another colleague, 67, and it's a hard call at that age, but I'm going with ENFJ because she's got the tension, the woe-is-me sometimes, and the personal authority. (And the groups of people around her she dips in and out of for meaning and relaxation.)

    Long story short, she calmed everyone down by taking over the conversation and somehow or other ending up telling soporific, mildly uplifting stories about her time in Africa. Force majeure, and it worked. I felt the burden lift. All four of us were able to go away and be about our business.
    Didn't solve the problem though, did it?
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  5. #15
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    Fi is like a super Fe bullshit detector. It "feels" Fe trying to control and direct and it is very resentful of that control. It feels manipulated and then pulls out a tertiary Te to kick some ass and rebel. Feeling an Fe playing me and trying to direct me causes a direct defensive Te attack.
    I like this. I have often thought of Fi like emotional radar of sorts.

    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    Fi, when good, is a childlike, quality, of love that overflows, like a river into all the empty spots around me externally. It finds the holes and crannies and nooks, and fills then up with this glow. I can't speak Fi so well, but I use it to disarm fairly well, especially with other's like INTJs who have a wee bit of Fi. I walk up to them and I smile and I relax all defenses and just glow at them. I can't say it is manipulation as, in that moment, I love them. I care for them and I would do whatever it takes to help them/hold them/embrace them. Nah, I actually usually love them forever after that. They have become part of my clan. Fi has no bottom, it doesn't run out, it wants the best for everyone.
    Love that.

  6. #16
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Kalach, I usually follow what you're saying but I'm not quite sure what you're getting at this time. Are you saying the way the FJs you work with handle situations isn't efficient (as you'd like) and when you go to point this out to them you get smacked down? Functionally, you are trampling on what these FJs to be their strong point which is dealing with people. And you know there's a difference between Te Efficient and Fe Efficient? You phrased your OP as if Fe is the oblivious offensive party, but it cuts both ways. It's like Fe is Walmart gobbling up the Fi mom and pops. And god-forbid Fi wants to unionize!

    What are the Fe/FJs doing to you other than just existing? Ideally, what would you want them to do? I'm asking you to sit back and objectively look at what they are doing. Concretely and specifically. Some things aren't concrete...how do you But all of the FJs do this? None of them are what you would consider reasonable? How is that even possible? I'm sorry but I really can't see that all the FJs you deal with are purposely out to crush you. You seem really sensitive (maybe oversensitive) to any communication via Fe.
    I know an INFJ fairly well. Well enough for her to want to talk about stuff. I know every time I do talk with her I offer solutions or understandings. And I can feel at that time that I am essentially overriding her ways of thinking and doing. Trampling on her Ti with my sudden Te conclusions out of Ni, and speaking as if her feeling judgments were, or should be, Fi (when she's operating on Fe, doh!). In other words, not being able to offer what she needs.

    That's one thing.

    The other thing is an unceasing grudge against ENFJs, based on a small number of experiences. Pissed off that I haven't been heard. Pissed off actually that I know deep in my heart that I get sat on: their Se gathers up any of my actions--words, movements, whatever--and uses it for their Fe scheme, making any actual content those words had moot. Literally, if I speak a word to an ENFJ, it is just air out of my mouth. (Actually, literally, it's not: it was something to them, just not the thing I wanted it to be.)

    It's okay if they're not particularly involved with me. In that case they're nice folks, intelligent, curious, interested. It's the up-close and personal part that goes so wrong. But there's murmurs of this wrong in any communication. Whispers. Signs and signals that my kind of communication will fail if or when it comes to saying something important. So, bummed.

    I like that INFJ buddy of mine. She's great. I respect her more or less instantly for the similarity between her processes and mine. And it's nice to be able to say she has a similar process with a (significantly) different focus. I'll trust her insights. (Grudgingly, though, because they're just as sudden and authoritarian as mine.)

    I am, in summary, trying, as usual, to find a solution. The default solution is "don't speak with the FJs." And that doesn't seem good enough. It contains no respect for whatever the hell it is you guys are up to, and puts an end to communication with a lot of people. So I'm looking for an understanding...

    A way, in short, of offering respect without having to submit.

    And getting respect too.

    Unfortunately perhaps, "respect" probably cashes out as "cooperation". I suspect it won't happen. Right now it looks as if there's a blanket fail on cooperation. But if I knew more about what was going on...




    It's a gestalt. I get pissed off by some people and troubled by others. Close (at least theoretically) to a handful, meeting a billion more. I totalled up once the number of students have had my ministrations lectured at them in the last ten years. About 2000.

    Meeting people, knowing people, being around people--people are getting to be an issue.

  7. #17
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Hey, look who's back and hasn't been drinking.

    .
    It's only noon here... give me some time.

  8. #18
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    kalach is a funny creature for sure.

    i'm just learning about functions so don't feel qualified to speak intelligibly on the subject however it's interesting to realize that i do typically speak about feelings in an unattached matter of fact way...or maybe it depends on the feeling i'm expressing...the guarded ones i do i guess the sweet sappy ones maybe a lot less so.

    actually i guess i don't have a point.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  9. #19
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erinavery View Post
    kalach is a funny creature for sure.

    i'm just learning about functions so don't feel qualified to speak intelligibly on the subject however it's interesting to realize that i do typically speak about feelings in an unattached matter of fact way...or maybe it depends on the feeling i'm expressing...the guarded ones i do i guess the sweet sappy ones maybe a lot less so.

    actually i guess i don't have a point.
    But you do! I think you are picking up on the Te stuff. You kind of treat the feelings from an objective distance via Te to keep Fi safe.

    Anyways point or no,

  10. #20
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Plus, being around FJs is tiring because none of my answers address their issues, and if they have better Se than me, I'm screwed. Royally. Oh yes, royally. (Y'ever feel what it's like to have anything you say and do be nought but grist for an Se-grabber serving Te-goals? That's the way it works for me around NFJs, except the Se-grabber has Fe-goals.)

    Not entirely sure it's just me, me, me. Observation seems to show two kinds of camp out there. I can see it in classes by looking at who sits with whom. And sometimes listening to people talk about relationships seems to bring it out too. The whole world gets to looking like factions and camps.

    That my Se can't locate a foothold for the Te advance because somebody else is occupying the ground. But yeah. I guess.

    Fe user! The people in the context can make wrong be their choice. Because they're comfortable with it and enjoying themselves.
    i think i better understand your frustrations. Fe creates plausible stories of emotional experience and can use those to manipulate others. the objective "for the greater good" is undermined by constantly shifting emotional propaganda that is just as directive and agenda-oriented as Te. as introverts who rely primarily on one extraverted function (Je), sometimes we feel worried and paranoid that, in the heat of the moment, we might just be fucked (my two best functions are introverted, and between what you're saying and another intj girl i'm very close to, i agree having inferior Se creates paranoia when we do not have confidence in our extraverted good-information grabbing ability).

    one of the best advantages of Fe, to me, is that we know how to articulate BETWEEN parties. we are excellent mediators. we can absorb and internalize the languages of others, know how to express things in (what we imagine to be) their own words. this makes us crafty communicators, and sometimes this can be yet another tool used to DIRECT the social group too much by a single will. fascist, dictatorial, tyrannical, etc. it sucks getting bent over by a group of crazed people all jacked up on their shared motive and sense of superiority, certainty, etc. the dinosaurs didn't want to die out either.

    this seems like one of those situations where you need to try to maximize your power and defuse the bomb. sometimes the social group stomps on some of its so-called members. i don't think any of us are free from the tangled possibility. social life can be disgusting and degrading for us introverts, who feel very strongly we know things should be another (better!) way than this.

    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    Fi is like a super Fe bullshit detector. It "feels" Fe trying to control and direct and it is very resentful of that control. It feels manipulated and then pulls out a tertiary Te to kick some ass and rebel. Feeling an Fe playing me and trying to direct me causes a direct defensive Te attack.

    Maybe because Fi on it's own feels so independent with a very live and let live philosophy. As long as you do not cause pain in others than you should be free to do what makes you happy. (Likely Fi is a biologically, evolutionarilly, derived empathy tool planted to make me help others in times of duress to strengthan social bonds and obligations. So it doesnt really give a shit, till someone else hurts, then it mirrors that hurt and I end up in pain. It's very hands off till then. Fi is like , fuck, entangled quantum particles or something when it comes to other's pain (Was that Te flavored?))
    the subjective ideals, values, and beliefs of Fi are enacted upon all the time. they drive Fi dom and even auxilary types. they fuck with others all the time, albeit in a more indirect, informing kind of way. their beliefs are often really retarded. they effect us all, who, as a society, have to function together. this free spirit thing is great blah blah but meanwhile corporations own the world and force their mission statements and their sell by the script on us all. the world needs effective communication just like it needs pragmatic types, just like it needs deeply healing, complex, humane, interwoven Fi types. Fi often suffers for the strength it develops, it can be a beautiful thing. it's like it's its own human photosynthesis process. but it's also passion of the christ martyrdom and inane religious ideals that pollute the world and inspire emotional bombs that keep blowing shit up. Ti feels like an inane Fi bullshit detector when it comes to dumb ideals that get in the way of social progress, change, betterment, objectivity, etc. and yes, behind these terrorfying ideals Fe is probably there to help spread the message and Te is probably there to conquer all in the name of it. so no judging FUNCTION is free of blame, if you really feel the need to blame cognitive functions instead of human beings, socio-cultural choices, ethics/aesthetic expressions, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    Hmmm...Fe seems manipulative because you can see the thought processes behind it. It's kinda clunky sometimes, but then I'm probably speaking of Fe-tertiary users.
    I also find Fe user have a tendency to overlook other's feelings if they deem it out of context with the situation, and expect certain emotions to be express in other situations and are most disconcerted when those feelings aren't. Occasionally I find they over simplify emotions at times.
    I don't know, doesn't it scream fake to you, that in certain situations these are the feelings you should be expressing, regardless of Wether you are feeling them or not? It's like playing dress up really.
    BTW to all Fe users, these are just fleeting thoughts of mine...to be taken with a pinch of salt.
    i think you've pinpointed the problem of Fe/Fi pretty well. Fe wants articulation and expression of feelings. it does not know how to respond or react without expression. it wants people to communicate and connect. it wants to bridge gaps and understand. yet it is Je, an extraverted judging function. so sometimes it can fuck people over in assertive, aggressive, bordering violent ways. same with Te. Ne is craftier to have as your first extraverted function. hence its awesomeness (and why i love spending time and connecting with Ne people). but i have to connect, otherwise, i have nothing to extravert, communicate, put forth, contribute, etc. it is how i express myself and my desires.

    Fi gets way overrated, and i say that from a perspective knowing it is like a protein my body cannot synthesize on its own, that i desperately crave and need so i'm not slamming it. the problem with Fi is that Fi users often times seem totally unable to see the limitations it imposes on them. they see Fi functioning/operation as being indomitably RIGHT, in a moral sense, as if they alone live in the best way according to empty generalized abstracts like "human nature" and ethical codes of the golden rule. this, at times, lacks complexity. at other times it can be the perfect SIMPLIFICATION that is needed, it is the bringer of faith and certainty when such things struggle to exist. it is not nearly live and let live in most Fi users as they seem to think, but often times, it is still GOOD. Fi is informative which can too devolve into passive aggressive manipulation and a heavy oppressive weight on others as their unexpressed feelings leak out and poison the room with toxic gas. it's there too.

    but absolutely the continued desire for fj Fe to push and direct and incite articulation and expression of feeling can conflict almost absolutely with the Fp desire to sort out, weigh, and work thru feelings in their own language, healing/purifying them, before they put them forth out into the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    The other thing is an unceasing grudge against ENFJs, based on a small number of experiences. Pissed off that I haven't been heard. Pissed off actually that I know deep in my heart that I get sat on: their Se gathers up any of my actions--words, movements, whatever--and uses it for their Fe scheme, making any actual content those words had moot. Literally, if I speak a word to an ENFJ, it is just air out of my mouth. (Actually, literally, it's not: it was something to them, just not the thing I wanted it to be.)

    It's okay if they're not particularly involved with me. In that case they're nice folks, intelligent, curious, interested. It's the up-close and personal part that goes so wrong. But there's murmurs of this wrong in any communication. Whispers. Signs and signals that my kind of communication will fail if or when it comes to saying something important. So, bummed.

    I like that INFJ buddy of mine. She's great. I respect her more or less instantly for the similarity between her processes and mine. And it's nice to be able to say she has a similar process with a (significantly) different focus. I'll trust her insights. (Grudgingly, though, because they're just as sudden and authoritarian as mine.)

    I am, in summary, trying, as usual, to find a solution. The default solution is "don't speak with the FJs." And that doesn't seem good enough. It contains no respect for whatever the hell it is you guys are up to, and puts an end to communication with a lot of people. So I'm looking for an understanding...

    Meeting people, knowing people, being around people--people are getting to be an issue.
    well it sounds like infjs are less of a problem for you, altho they are just as directive. in my experience with intjs the extra Ti and reliance on introversion makes their sudden judgments and authoritative tone more palattable for them. we have to communicate, but we both can deal with directness.

    the enfj situation, if you're getting ganged up on, that might be one of those situations where you have to just keep letting it go. or re-route your office politics. if its in the context of a one-to-one relationship, maybe you just need to kick some ass. with nfjs who have a conscience, one of their best moments to realize they are in fact wrong and understand the needs of others in a new way is when they are hurt, licked, wounded. my head can get a bit big when things are going very well and i begin to spend less and less effort on considering the feelings of others. then something happens and i realize i have to do right by the other person, fix the situation, make it up to them, be more attentive and consider their feelings more. with an Fe dom enfj and an Fi ter intj, i'm guessing they ADAMANTLY believe they KNOW your feelings better than you do. i am guilty of said hubris at times myself. especially when feelings are under-expressed, when we do not see them articulated and communicated, we begin to guess and use our intuition to think we have pinpointed and grasped the hints and allegations underlying these unsaid feelings. we start to attempt to sketch them, but we will adjust if we see that we are wrong wrong wrong. we have to, unless we are in fact monsters. in which case, RUN!

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