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  1. #21
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukepd View Post
    I've said this before but I think sugar coating things and being "non offensive" is actually more offensive in the long run
    Yes, they tend to this and it is . I've noticed this with my INFP friend. Rather then being blunt and direct about their opinion in a argument about the proposed point, they will dance around it in limbo and then smother it with choclate.

    When challenged out on their beliefs and values, even when presented a more reasonable and factual argument that defeats their's, they will retreat into their castle of subjective values which they hold as the highest and most reasonable echelions of life, no matter how irrational they may be.

    Truly NFP's believe themselves to be the knights in shining armor, whose ideals are victorious nomatter how superior the rational dragon is.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  2. #22
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    I'm bound to defend my opinion, but not press it; all I need is for the other person to back off if they are being on the offensive side. Normally attacking against someone elses beliefs doesn't cross my mind, unless I'm questioning a point that came up in the conversation. I've tried to keep in mind the approach to question the whole value/belief systems of the person that I'm talking to, but I forget to do it. It just doesn't come to mind.
    I will get offensive if you piss me off though..

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    NFs can be really offensive sometimes.
    Erm.. I've managed to offend people mostly when I'm not meaning to do so.

  3. #23
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Introverted-esfp View Post
    Yes, they tend to this and it is . I've noticed this with my INFP friend. Rather then being blunt and direct about their opinion in a argument about the proposed point, they will dance around it in limbo and then smother it with choclate.

    When challenged out on their beliefs and values, even when presented a more reasonable and factual argument that defeats their's, they will retreat into their castle of subjective values which they hold as the highest and most reasonable echelions of life, now matter how irrational they may be.

    Truly NFP's believe themselves to be the knights in shining armor, whose ideals are victorious nomatter how superior the rational the dragon is.
    Na, it's because we're right.
    Seriously, though, that isn't the way to change a deeply held belief. In some respects, you actually reinforce them, by doing that. It has to be done gently, and with kindness. Do it with force and of course our defenses go up.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  4. #24
    Magical BlackCat's Avatar
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    I prefer to gently tell people my opinions and the truth. As Luke put it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukepd View Post
    I've said this before but I think sugar coating things and being "non offensive" is actually more offensive in the long run
    These are my thoughts exactly. They will get the truth one way or another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Introverted-esfp View Post
    When challenged out on their beliefs and values, even when presented a more reasonable and factual argument that defeats their's, they will retreat into their castle of subjective values which they hold as the highest and most reasonable echelions of life, now matter how irrational they may be.
    I am guilty of this, but in general I am always trying to refine my values to conform to reality. I don't want to be irrational. If I see something I believe in as irrational I'll fix it.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukepd View Post
    I've said this before but I think sugar coating things and being "non offensive" is actually more offensive in the long run
    To me, it's all a matter of speaking the other person's language--not what they want to hear, but what you want to say in a way that they can understand and process it. If they haven't received your message, you haven't communicated effectively.

    To that end, there's a way to be tactful and to speak to someone on a personal level that's typically more rewarding, productive, and constructive than speaking in an overly direct manner.

    Being patronizing, refusing to tell the truth, or sugarcoating responses, however, is offensive.


    Quote Originally Posted by Introverted-esfp View Post
    When challenged out on their beliefs and values, even when presented a more reasonable and factual argument that defeats their's, they will retreat into their castle of subjective values which they hold as the highest and most reasonable echelions of life, no matter how irrational they may be.

    Truly NFP's believe themselves to be the knights in shining armor, whose ideals are victorious nomatter how superior the rational the dragon is.
    As long as they don't impose their subjective values on other people, I don't see a problem.

    Often, values and priorities get challenged when they don't need to be, or even when they can't be. However, know that we can rethink our values in the face of new information, after all.

  6. #26
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    The point is that they will focus on defending their beliefs and they will not start a counter attack on your belief system unless you are really pushing it.
    In some cases you will hear a rant or an insult but there will probably be no calm and calculated(really calculated) ofensive.

    NFs are also quite unlikey to attack the other persons belief system.

    Do you feel uncomfortable doing that or you are afraid that you will be depressed if you do that? Or you are afraid of destroying a friendship (or whatever)?
    I'm not certain your statement is typically true of NFs, but it could be. Speaking only for myself, I am slow to form opinions. If I have a strong opinion on something it is because I have looked into it thoroughly. I haven't typically done this with someone else's belief system. I'm not afraid of being depressed, but possibly of destroying the relationship. I'm afraid of introducing too much emotion into a situation. It doesn't entirely matter what the personality type, when anger or pride takes over, reason checks out at least for the time being.

    I am "overly non-offensive" if there is such a thing. Getting people upset clouds judgment and can escalate into something out of control. When someone is really upset they can hear all kinds of things I never said and then what? Zero communication. I prefer efficient interactions with people whether discussing important issues or just having dinner together. A few ways this is achieved is by not mirroring other people's negative emotions if it means the situation will escalate out of control and the raw emotion will take over. If someone is angry, insist on being calm and more often than not, you can get them to mirror the calmer stance. I understand what emotions do to thought and perspective and so I am slow to introduce or encourage this with people and try to make the interaction understated if possible. I try to simplify interactions with people and not dig into everything that can complicate matters. Belief systems can be filled with trigger points that activate all kinds of intense emotion and unexpected reactions in others regardless of type.

    I've also found that people tend to think and believe whatever makes them feel secure and strong even when there is evidence to the contrary. There are complex reasons for this. I see no reason to get bent out of shape with an inability to accept this about people. If I can't get my head around how the person is viewing things in order to hold what appears to be an erroneous belief, then I cannot be most effective in presenting a counter argument.

    Maybe the simplest way to put all this is to say whenever there is conflict, I begin by asking myself "What will be accomplished by engaging in conflict with this person in this instance?" If I don't have a good answer, I try to leave it alone.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  7. #27
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    The point is that they will focus on defending their beliefs and they will not start a counter attack on your belief system unless you are really pushing it.
    In some cases you will hear a rant or an insult but there will probably be no calm and calculated(really calculated) ofensive.
    It's only overly non offensive if forming an offensive on your viewpoints would have been a good use of their time.

  8. #28
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    That is just something I have noticed.
    I know that NFs are very wide group so I am generalizing since they are NFs that are not like this.




    If you attack NFs on their beliefs you will probably provoke a response.
    The NFs that is attacked will do anything in its power to prove that the belief system is correct/valid.
    However if you do that all the time they will learn how to ignore you.


    But that is not the point.

    The point is that they will focus on defending their beliefs and they will not start a counter attack on your belief system unless you are really pushing it.
    In some cases you will hear a rant or an insult but there will probably be no calm and calculated(really calculated) ofensive.



    NFs are also quite unlikey to attack the other persons belief system.

    Do you feel uncomfortable doing that or you are afraid that you will be depressed if you do that? Or you are afraid of destroying a friendship (or whatever)?
    There is no point in causing an argument for it's own sake.
    I do this because it's tiring to argue, and I don't want to expend my energy explaining myself. I'm certainly not afraid of expressing my opinion; I just don't seek out situations for that purose. I can argue quite well, actually, and I can cut too, but only if it's deserved.

  9. #29
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sade View Post
    Erm.. I've managed to offend people mostly when I'm not meaning to do so.
    I offend people a lot unintentionally too. I think it's the Te or something. I've been told I can seem abrasive, but I have a feeling this is when I am being defensive. Or it's people misreading my shyness & introversion as being stand-offish and rude. I also am less inclined to observe certain social niceties that seem phony to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by greed View Post
    To me, it's all a matter of speaking the other person's language--not what they want to hear, but what you want to say in a way that they can understand and process it. If they haven't received your message, you haven't communicated effectively.

    To that end, there's a way to be tactful and to speak to someone on a personal level that's typically more rewarding, productive, and constructive than speaking in an overly direct manner.

    Often, values and priorities get challenged when they don't need to be, or even when they can't be. However, know that we can rethink our values in the face of new information, after all.
    Definitely agree with this.

    NFPs may not be refusing to accept supposed "hard logic", but the person trying to make a point may not realize they haven't made it as clearly as they imagine they have. I notice people who love to argue and consider themselves "rational" are often blind to the big picture. They get stuck on "facts" and don't take into account human emotions and perspectives. Everything isn't black and white, and I think NFPs see that.
    When we encounter these people, who feel they've successfully torn down our beliefs, we're probably internally rolling our eyes because we see their view as very limited, and we've lost all interest in explaining ourselves to someone who has blinders on.

    NFPs can argue a point quite well, because as I brought out in my other post, we often use persuasion to appeal to people. It's a lot more subtle & effective because no one feels they are being attacked.

    Like nebbykoo says, expending that energy to argue our viewpoint is often not worth it. Why argue with someone who is dead set in their ways? What do you accomplish?
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  10. #30

    Default NFs; natural proponents of "live and let live."

    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    INFJs: Fe-but I think since it is auxilliary and supports a dmoniant introverted function, it would fight defend it's own values but be unlikely to go on the offensive aganist yours. It will withdraw and observe instead.
    Passionate as I am about my ideals, I make a constant exercise of tolerance and acceptance because I concede the general futility of passionate expositions of my personal belief system against that of others.

    Of all the NFs however, I suspect we are the most likely to pause, withdraw, watch and learn you if you insist on providing us with enough material; and yet patiently disregard you at the same time.

    Unless we're seriously provoked,
    in which case, we'll cut you where it counts.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

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