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  1. #31
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meursault View Post
    i'm not married and i have no children, but even if i did i don't see how it would be a problem; it hasn't been one yet--maybe because i am not trying to save them, or take on their burdens, i just accept them--i just reflect back the beauty i see in them. the only person i cannot do this for is myself...
    What does this reflecting of beauty entail in a concrete sense? Do they never ask you for any practical help? Do they not talk to you on the phone for hours about their problems? How can it not make you feel helpless when you know they don't have proper food or their electricity is turned off or they are in danger? What happens when they get out of detox and call you for a ride home?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meursault View Post
    i'm not a saint nor do i want to be--i don't have messiah complex (which some here seem to have).

    i don't believe in saints but i do have two heroes--Joesph Merrick and the doctor who took him into his home. i don't think i could have taken joseph in, and this shames me a great deal. nor do i think i could have continued to be kind and decent after having been so mistreated as joseph had been--you know he forgave the people who were horrified by his appearance.
    What does a messiah complex have to with not letting a psychopathic person bring their power games into one's life? What does it have to do with allowing a self-destructive person bring their destruction into one's life?

    I have at points in my life said enough is enough with people and said no more when asked to just keep on putting up with abuse and boundry issues.

  3. #33
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meursault View Post
    no, i just think you think too highly of your own opinion and experience; but as i said, i don't look to change people, you are how you are.
    There are instances in which people don't try to change others because they enjoy having a context to feel superior. My 'thinking too highly of my posts' could give you cause to demonstrate something superior. It is definitely an insult and put down and a character slam, and rather effective invalidation. Consider that you don't actually know me well enough to know what i think of my posts or experience. That statement is intrusive to me - i will let you know i think that. i don't really want you to know more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meursault View Post
    i disagree with everything you said about tough love--just about every kid living the street whoring themselves to stay "alive" is the product of tough love. tough love is bullshit.
    It's not appropriate in every context. A pre-adult does not have the means to make it on their own, so kicking them out is a horrible plan.The toughened alchoholic father who comes home drunk and borders on abusing his children should come home to locked doors. Context is everything. Every single comment in this thread requires an understanding of such a complex context.

    One of the problems with this thread is that we are talking about way too many things at once. Some are talking about sociopaths, others habitual victims, some bullies and aggressors, others the self-righteous, and others still their personal friends. People express an opinion about one and the next poster places those comments as an opinion about a completely different demographic. It has potential to be quite a mess. It is extremely important not to make snap judgments about people posting here, but to show some love and support for whatever situations they have faced that brings them to difficult choices. There is a great deal of pain expressed in this thread, people being open about things that have hurt them deeply. It is a raw context to be judging the people here. Potentially more hurtful than a thread about pure analysis. edit: When making tough calls there is guilt, regret, relief, second guessing, etc. It is a horrible process of being torn and wanting to find the right answer when there are no right answers. So yes, I feel pretty damn protective of those who have been in the rough, raw trenches making the tough calls. Only people with perfect sheltered lives even consider perfection a possibility within themselves or others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meursault View Post
    i'm not a saint nor do i want to be--i don't have messiah complex (which some here seem to have).
    You do realize these kinds of statements have potential to be hurtful, right? But i am sorry that you are in a position to see things that way. I don't know you except for a handful of statements in cyberspace. (please explain previous link in the context of this discussion.) I'm guessing there are people you know irl with the attitude you are perceiving here? I don't understand that ready dismissal of everyone else's point of view. How is that acceptance? How is that humility?

    I really have appreciated your comments here, but they are continually paired with these attacks on other posters. You make beautiful, inspiring statements about acceptance and them SLAM, make statements that could reasonably make other feel like shit. If the kindest, most ideal people like yourself are going to think the worst of others posting here, where the heck can a person go for a safe haven?

    Meursault, how are you hoping others will respond to you in this thread?
    Last edited by labyrinthine; 08-25-2007 at 12:25 PM.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    What does this reflecting of beauty entail in a concrete sense? Do they never ask you for any practical help? Do they not talk to you on the phone for hours about their problems? How can it not make you feel helpless when you know they don't have proper food or their electricity is turned off or they are in danger? What happens when they get out of detox and call you for a ride home?
    i am not understanding you point, but i will try to answer your questions:

    i have sat on the phone for hours talking to people about their problems, but to be honest that happened more frequently in high school and college--if a friend were to call now, i would definitely take the call, because at 35, in my experience it is very rare to get those types of calls these days, and so i think that the problem would have to be pretty severe to prompt the call in the first place--maybe life and death. but wouldn't most people do this?

    when you ask about about food and electricity, do you mean anyone in the world or my friends? i feel very bad about anyone bad off--the evening news often makes me cry. i give sandwiches to homeless people or buy them coffee from the starbucks, if they ask--i don't feel right presuming i know what they want, if they don't ask i don't do anything (but i am pretty poor, so sometimes i can't help them, but i look at them like they are people and say i can't help today).

    i don't feel used by this, it is my choice. i am where i am because i had the luck to be born into a wealthy family--if i hadn't been, i might be one of them on the street...

    if you mean my friends--well, if my friend had no food or electricity i would bring them home with me and feed them and make them a bed on my couch. i have given friends rides home from detox, and to detox, and picked them up when they are too drunk or high to drive...this is what friends do for each other, isn't it?

    i wouldn't move a homeless person into my home because i would be scared of my safety and uncomfortable--this is part of what i was talking about when i said i wasn't a saint and that i fall short of what i think a truly good person would do for another person.

    but none of this is what i meant when i said reflecting back the beauty i see in other people, that is closer to affirmation, i guess. an example: an elderly librarian where i work feels very stupid a lot because of technology and many of the others there encourage her to believe this is about herself, because, well, to be honest i am not sure, but i think its because it makes them feel better about themselves. but she is not stupid at all, i let her know this and act as her cheering section with matters of technology. it costs me nothing but helps her a little bit.
    none of us, no, not one is perfect, and were we to love none who had imperfections, this world would be a desert for our love

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    There are instances in which people don't try to change others because they enjoy having a context to feel superior. My 'thinking too highly of my posts' could give you cause to demonstrate something superior. It is definitely an insult and put down and a character slam, and rather effective invalidation. Consider that you don't actually know me well enough to know what i think of my posts or experience. That statement is intrusive to me - i will let you know i think that. i don't really want you to know more.
    i don't have to know you well to have an opinion of how your posts above read to me, nor i have asked you to tell me anything about yourself. as for character slam, if there wasn't a shred of truth to my observation, it wouldn't bother you so much. you are chastising to me as if you are my mother--do you not see the irony?

    It's not appropriate in every context. A pre-adult does not have the means to make it on their own, so kicking them out is a horrible plan.The toughened alchoholic father who comes home drunk and borders on abusing his children should come home to locked doors. Context is everything. Every single comment in this thread requires an understanding of such a complex context.

    One of the problems with this thread is that we are talking about way too many things at once. Some are talking about sociopaths, others habitual victims, some bullies and aggressors, others the self-righteous, and others still their personal friends. People express an opinion about one and the next poster places those comments as an opinion about a completely different demographic. It has potential to be quite a mess. It is extremely important not to make snap judgments about people posting here, but to show some love and support for whatever situations they have faced that brings them to difficult choices. There is a great deal of pain expressed in this thread, people being open about things that have hurt them deeply. It is a raw context to be judging the people here. Potentially more hurtful than a thread about pure analysis. edit: When making tough calls there is guilt, regret, relief, second guessing, etc. It is a horrible process of being torn and wanting to find the right answer when there are no right answers. So yes, I feel pretty damn protective of those who have been in the rough, raw trenches making the tough calls. Only people with perfect sheltered lives even consider perfection a possibility within themselves or others.
    you are being overly dramatic here toonia, it is not the end of the world. i said you were being self-righteous. i did not say you were a bad person, in fact you seem to be a good person (though i think you are misguided about somethings--but the world is big enough for both of our approaches).

    your above comments are a perfect example of why i said that i think you think too highly of your own opinion--you've just lectured me for two long paragraphs on how i should think and behave--that is self-righteous by definition. and from your response, being called self-righteous seems to be a sore spot with you. if you feel i am way off base, just shrug it off as the uninformed opinion of stupid anonymous person online; and then stand up straight, smile, and get on your life and forget about me.

    your underlying assumption that i have not understood the thread is wrong--i have understood what was going on perfectly, we just have different opinions about it.

    simply because i do not choose to air the horror story of my own life, does not mean i live a "perfectly sheltered" one. i am not going to try to manipulate you or anyone else who reads my words into accepting what i have to say by publicizing my woes, which is all that posting my life's not-so-greatest-hits would serve to do. do you not see that just about everything you said above is a perfect example of NF manipulation that was being discussed intpc recently? you throw all out this personal stuff to basically try to silence me, and to shame me.

    (BTW, i include sociopaths and abusive alcoholic fathers in my conception of people who deserve acceptance and safe haven somewhere by someone. i don't believe jeffrey dahmer made a conscious decision to be a serial killing cannibal--and for that reason alone he deserves tremendous pity; and while he doesn't have a right to hurt others, he did have a right to be placed in a humane place to live out his days and maybe get help.

    and the same goes for the drunk father who beats his kids--he does not deserve to hurt his kids but he does deserve pity and someone somewhere who will try to help him. i am not saying you or anyone else doesn't have a right to get away from abusive people. i am just saying that all people deserve acceptance and a safe haven somewhere...and when people hurt you, letting go of the anger and forgiving them is the only way to heal yourself...)

    You do realize these kinds of statements have potential to be hurtful, right?
    yes, but you are using the potential to hurt as a means of censorship--and that is wrong. as for my comment from that post: criticism can lodge inside of me--i mull it over, i consider it, it become parts of me--often i wish this was not true, but it is--i let it guide my perception of myself and some of it hurts me terribly, but only the criticism that touches my insecurities, and usually only by people who matter to me--i try to use it to make myself a better person. BUT i don't deny people their right as senteint beings to form opinions about my words and actions.

    But i am sorry that you are in a position to see things that way. I don't know you except for a handful of statements in cyberspace. (please explain previous link in the context of this discussion.) I'm guessing there are people you know irl with the attitude you are perceiving here? I don't understand that ready dismissal of everyone else's point of view. How is that acceptance? How is that humility?
    actually it is perfectly consistent, but i guess you ignored my "heh." i don't feel sympathy so much for people i know just going through the ordinary pains of life--nothing i said above contradicts that--i accept that they are human and are not perfect--it is hard for me to pity people suffering from the same things i suffer from, but easy for me to pity people who suffer things that are far removed from what i have suffered. i think it is just that if i have survived it, it doesn't seem so serious to me--that doesn't mean i don't help if they need me to or listen if they want to vent...

    you seem to be thinking that accepting a person and approving everything that person says and does are synonymous--they aren't. one of my best friends has repeatedly cheated on her husband, she knows i think this is wrong, but i still love her, she is still my friend and i accept her nonetheless. in fact, i don't believe you can really, truly accept someone unless you acknowledge their flaws too--otherwise you aren't even really "seeing" them.

    I really have appreciated your comments here, but they are continually paired with these attacks on other posters. You make beautiful, inspiring statements about acceptance and them SLAM, make statements that could reasonably make other feel like shit. If the kindest, most ideal people like yourself are going to think the worst of others posting here, where the heck can a person go for a safe haven?
    i post here so infrequently that i find it hard to believe i have forever destroyed the safe haven of mbticentral, and have garnered a reputation as a troll etc, but if i am disruptive, i didn't mean to be, i apologize and will abstain from posting in the future.

    Meursault, how are you hoping others will respond to you in this thread?
    i wasn't hoping they would respond--i was just posting my thoughts. i don't post to get a response. the only response i have gotten that meant anything to me was a PM from jeff jones but i think he sent me that PM by mistake.
    none of us, no, not one is perfect, and were we to love none who had imperfections, this world would be a desert for our love

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    What does a messiah complex have to with not letting a psychopathic person bring their power games into one's life? What does it have to do with allowing a self-destructive person bring their destruction into one's life?

    I have at points in my life said enough is enough with people and said no more when asked to just keep on putting up with abuse and boundry issues.
    you need to quit assuming that everything i say is about you. nothing i have said is about you.

    i have said many times now that people have a right to get away from abusive people--but those abusive people also deserve humane compassion too because with the exception of dick cheney, i do not believe in inherently evil people.

    you view leaving people as being about them, i view it as about me (if someone is not good for me, my leaving them is about my taking care of myself, not my giving up on them as people).
    none of us, no, not one is perfect, and were we to love none who had imperfections, this world would be a desert for our love

  7. #37
    Member Andy K Octopus's Avatar
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    People who can't or won't comprehend the essential ethical or moral "wrongness" of their actions.

    For example, someone like Hitler, who was so far gone in his delusions, could not comprehend that Germany's destruction in 1945 was primarily his (and his followers) fault. According to many witnesses, by April 1945, Hitler blamed everyone but himself for Germany's utter ruin. I am not going to even start with the moral wrongness of many things that were done in his name during the war,

    I also have had experience with a few people who utterly fried their brain with one drug or another. (I was quite experimental) as a younger man and I know a few people who turned their brain to mush trying everything from acid to Special K to crystal meth, not to mention alcohol. I would say "they are so far gone."

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meursault View Post
    you need to quit assuming that everything i say is about you. nothing i have said is about you.
    I am simply giving my perspective to your post as an NF who was posting in this thread. You made some pretty blanket statements to that category if you remember. I didn't think it was all about me, just that I was part of that group that you directed your comments to.

    Since you have labled me part of a collective that includes two INFJ whom you believe are somehow working unison to berate your postings, I have to laugh at your touchiness here at thinking I have assumed things are all about me.


    ...you view leaving people as being about them, i view it as about me (if someone is not good for me, my leaving them is about my taking care of myself, not my giving up on them as people).
    In order to make the decision to back away from contact (either just limiting it or stopping it altogether) you must have had a point where you made the decision that this person was not soon to reform and that you gave up on the current relationship. What is so different in that and what others here are saying? Why do they have a "messiah complex"?

    You are also wrong in your assumption that I think it is always about them and not me. It is also about my weakness in not being able to well tolerate people who are chaotic, abusive or dishonest or who lack empathy.

  9. #39
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meursault View Post
    if you mean my friends--well, if my friend had no food or electricity i would bring them home with me and feed them and make them a bed on my couch. i have given friends rides home from detox, and to detox, and picked them up when they are too drunk or high to drive...this is what friends do for each other, isn't it?
    This is what friends do for each other to a point. If the friend keeps getting in those situations or keeps doing nothing to change those situations and to all appearances, they are able to, do we let them sleep on our couch indefinitely or buy them groceries every week? This is why I say that it does make a difference whether or not we have other responsibilities. Personally, I have a husband who must work a lot of hours and four kids. The time I take to talk on the phone, the money I spend to help out, the time and gas I take to drive someone someplace is time or money I'm not giving to my family or using to recharge myself so I can be healthy and well to take care of my family.

    If someone continues to be in need of inordinate amounts of time and energy and shows no signs of ever needing less even though it appears that it does not need to be the case, the time comes for me when I feel they are robbing my family or I am robbing my family for them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Meursault View Post
    but none of this is what i meant when i said reflecting back the beauty i see in other people, that is closer to affirmation, i guess. an example: an elderly librarian where i work feels very stupid a lot because of technology and many of the others there encourage her to believe this is about herself, because, well, to be honest i am not sure, but i think its because it makes them feel better about themselves. but she is not stupid at all, i let her know this and act as her cheering section with matters of technology. it costs me nothing but helps her a little bit.
    Well, yeah, saying nice things like that is a no brainer, isn't it? I can't imagine not doing that.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I am simply giving my perspective to your post as an NF who was posting in this thread. You made some pretty blanket statements to that category if you remember. I didn't think it was all about me, just that I was part of that group that you directed your comments to.

    Since you have labled me part of a collective that includes two INFJ whom you believe are somehow working unison to berate your postings, I have to laugh at your touchiness here at thinking I have assumed things are all about me.
    i'm not touchy at all--i am pretty much a zombie emotionally these days...i am just speaking matter of factly.

    i made one general statement and then was talking specifically to toonia, about my own beliefs or answering specific questions from cafe, but you kept responding with very pointed, personal posts to my posts--i just wanted you to now that i was not talking about you, because your posts seemed read as if you thought i was talking about you. you didn't need to justify yourself to me, but that was how your posts read to me.

    i don't come here frequently, all i kept seeing were three posts upbraiding me by three posters all in row responding to my posts, each time. if you look it at it from my perspective, it did look coordinated; and all three of you post here frequently and that sort of behavior is common on boards...[shrugs].

    In order to make the decision to back away from contact (either just limiting it or stopping it altogether) you must have had a point where you made the decision that this person was not soon to reform and that you gave up on the current relationship. What is so different in that and what others here are saying? Why do they have a "messiah complex"?
    in the post, i specifically explained that i did not stop contact. contact dissipated over time (life can just creep in over time without anyone doing anything) and the rest left me. i am not sure i have actually ever left anyone, though if some one wants to go, i let them go without a fuss (some have told me this is my biggest problem--but i respect freedom of those i love so...its catch 22).

    the messiah complex, is in reference to many of the posts that read as if the posters were angry at the "problem" person in large part because the poster tried very hard to help that person but the person just wouldn't be helped--they wanted to save the person and couldn't and that was what they were really angry about.

    You are also wrong in your assumption that I think it is always about them and not me. It is also about my weakness in not being able to well tolerate people who are chaotic, abusive or dishonest or who lack empathy.
    well, the comments for the most part focused on the other person and not you--they seemed very angry, actually, it was a chorus of them, them, them. i didn't see too much, i, i, i to counter it. but as i said to toonia, if i am off base, just ignore me.
    none of us, no, not one is perfect, and were we to love none who had imperfections, this world would be a desert for our love

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