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  1. #21
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    For me it's the empathic thing. I can't bear to watch them suffer. I cannot stop the suffering. They can but will not, so I just have to be where I can't see it anymore.
    This is the scenario for many of the people i love the most. They are to a degree trapped in circumstance, but more deeply trapped internally. A loved family member of mine has had an entire life of emotional torment and i invested a significant portion of my social life when younger to listen to this person, but ultimately they said there was nothing i could do to help. Yet they kept seeking me out. The circumstances have changed, but the underlying dynamics are similar. If i am to love my family, i must watch them suffer. I don't really have another choice. It does cut me very deeply and i am admonished often to 'please don't say anything', and so i don't. Respecting the boundary of adult personal choice is the rawest kind of tough love I know. It is precisely the type of love i have been required to learn. It leaves me with a very deep ache in the marrow of my bones that i carry with me at every single moment of every day on some level. I have learned a way to compartmentalize it more, but it is a learned behavior for me.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  2. #22
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meursault View Post
    ...or maybe its because openly flawed people are the only ones I can stand anymore....
    Yeah I'm getting this way. I've chosen not to analyze it too closely.

  3. #23
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    Fair enough, but that isn't what I was talking about. I'm not talking about someone who is using or abusing you, I'm talking about people who refuse (or seems unable) to take steps to avoid the things which are toxic in their own lives, and to make positive steps to become the sort of person they would like to be.
    Well, I guess I am just thrown by the definition of "beyond hope." To me, if they are having trouble in their own lives and it is not affecting me, then it is none of my business anyway and I am certainly far from perfect myself. It would not be my place to pass judgement on them to determine if they were beyond hope or not, not my call if it is not affecting me directly. We've all got life lessons we work on.

  4. #24
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    It's weird but for some reason i have encountered enough really hardened cruel people that it seems reasonable to address that category.

    Those who are hopeless vulnerable or victimized wouldn't inspire the same 'beyond hope' idea. You do have to learn how to create a boundary you can survive. This typically involves a chosen tunnel vision in which you first look at the big picture, decide some small way you can contribute to make them feel stronger, then let it go. The habitual victim can be a great source of pain, and it also doesn't seem productive to nurture or enable that sort of thing. There is a place for tough love, but the bottom line is to relate to them in such a way as to leave them feeling stronger and respecting their free will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meursault View Post
    i'm 35 and i have never said that of anyone...perhaps it's a "J" thing...or maybe its because openly flawed people are the only ones I can stand anymore....


    edit: i just read through this thread and there are so many self-righteous people on this site and intpc...i don't try to change people, i just accept them--if they aren't good for me, i say good bye, but that is about me, not them. if someone seems to be drowning i reach for them, and if they take my hand, i don't let go...i'm a pretty strong swimmer...
    I think i understand your basic premise here and it could be correct 'if' your assumptions (whatever they are) are correct about the complex details of these people's personal lives and interactions. Actually knowing some of these people one on one a little, i know that they face difficult, complex scenarios that could very easily merit the responses they describe here. Yes there is a principle of acceptance towards others, but people are also advised to practice tough love instead of nurturing co-dependent behaviors. The habitual victim is a tragic person and needs compassion, but the worst thing you can do is 'help' them destroy themselves. It is good that there are people in the world that want to extend an effort to change things for the better. It is important not to prejudge them just as it is important not to judge anyone too quickly. There is just a potential irony in rejecting someone for rejecting someone, if that makes sense. My question to you: do you think these 'self-righteous' people in this thread are too far gone?
    Last edited by labyrinthine; 08-24-2007 at 01:23 AM.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  5. #25
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    This is the scenario for many of the people i love the most. They are to a degree trapped in circumstance, but more deeply trapped internally. A loved family member of mine has had an entire life of emotional torment and i invested a significant portion of my social life when younger to listen to this person, but ultimately they said there was nothing i could do to help. Yet they kept seeking me out. The circumstances have changed, but the underlying dynamics are similar. If i am to love my family, i must watch them suffer. I don't really have another choice. It does cut me very deeply and i am admonished often to 'please don't say anything', and so i don't. Respecting the boundary of adult personal choice is the rawest kind of tough love I know. It is precisely the type of love i have been required to learn. It leaves me with a very deep ache in the marrow of my bones that i carry with me at every single moment of every day on some level. I have learned a way to compartmentalize it more, but it is a learned behavior for me.
    There are those for whom I believe I would do this, actually, to some degree, for some family and lifelong friends I do. I know that I would do this for my children as long as I could possibly bear it, but I will not take on new people, if that makes any sense.

    My (ex)step-dad, for instance, barring some miracle, is always going to struggle with substance abuse, but he also tries to be there for me when I need him and I know how much he loves my brother, his son, so I stay around.

    My dear friend of twenty-seven years is lonely, but fixates on unattainable men and will not follow practical advice from people who love her about how to improve her financial situation. She, at times, has utilities shut off, no transportation, very little food. I know that she has to learn things for herself and do things her way, but I hate to see her go through it. She is a good person and my friend and we will always be friends.

    Another lifelong friend is with a man who appears to have episodes of paranoid schizophrenia. When he is well, he cannot hold a job, gambles away what little money he earns, but at least he isn't violent. When he is sick, he has threatened her life and even begun to strangle her. She and her children live in constant crisis even when he is well and there is little predicting when he will not be well. I worry about her safety and it hurts to hear when they don't have the things they need for the kids, but she is not going to leave this guy. She loves him. She and I don't remember a time when we were not friends and as long as she wants me for a friend, I will be her friend.

    None of these people are, to my knowledge, psychopaths and they are mostly only hurting themselves. They would all be there for me in a pinch the best they could and at times have been there for me. In these situations, there just isn't anything I can do that will help or reduce the suffering. All I can do is be available and listen when it gets too much for them and maybe help with a few bucks here and there. At this point, I'm just not going to add to that, you know?
    Last edited by cafe; 08-24-2007 at 07:02 AM.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #26
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meursault View Post
    i'm 35 and i have never said that of anyone...perhaps it's a "J" thing...or maybe its because openly flawed people are the only ones I can stand anymore....


    edit: i just read through this thread and there are so many self-righteous people on this site and intpc...i don't try to change people, i just accept them--if they aren't good for me, i say good bye, but that is about me, not them. if someone seems to be drowning i reach for them, and if they take my hand, i don't let go...i'm a pretty strong swimmer...
    How do you balance that with your family and work responsibilities? Doesn't dealing with the crises drain you and take your time, making it hard for you to be there for your spouse and children like you want?
    Last edited by cafe; 08-24-2007 at 07:00 AM.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #27
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I find it interesting how often the F's are saying that the bad feelings / suffering is intense enough that they have to leave, because they cannot bear to watch the person implode.

    I feel the suffering too and empathize with it; but for whatever reason, the intensity (even if painful) only pushes me to stay more engaged than before. I don't know if I thrive off that sort of spiritual drama, but it doesn't turn me away.

    The only things that make me leave are (1) a desire to not interfere/interpose my choices over top of someone else's, freely made, and (2) the sense that there is logically nothing I can say that would change their mind or result in them reaching a different conclusion. It's like a tree chart for me, and I see the inevitable outcome, and thus decide I might as well not bother.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #28
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    A friend is never too far gone to me unless they are abusing me in some way and not even trying to change, why then should I care, to me that's too far gone so I'm gone.

    With a friend though I don't say their too far gone, I may empathise strongly and find it hurtful if they are continuing to self destruct in some way, but I value being there for them continually way too much to walk away. I eternally reach out to help those I love no matter how many years or grievances I may have had, I am there in a hurry because it's not too far gone, ever the optimist. (except where there is such a betrayel of me that I can't forgive anymore)

    If I love you and you hurt me in a way that is too severe inspite of my being there for you whilst you self destructed, then yes, too far gone, I won't risk myself so much.

    If the harm is purely to themselves and the only way it hurts me is by watching it, and loving them as a friend then no, I won't go, I won't walk away.

    People abandoned me with the "you're too far gone" attitude, when my pain was only ever inflicted upon me, leaving me even more alone in a situation that i felt powerless to walk away from, i don't treat people that way, I am there because I know how much they need that security and because I love them in some way. Not if it physically hurts me in some way though like with my ex, it took me 8yrs before I realised that he was too far gone, and that's a cut off I should have made sooner.

    When I said not taking my advice was one reason I would say too far gone, I purely meant advice to not stop hurting me like during my marriage, i gave real reasons, argued with feeling, even with logic that abusing me was wrong, i think 8yrs later saying "You're too far gone" isn;t self righteous at all.
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

  9. #29
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meursault View Post
    i'm 35 and i have never said that of anyone...perhaps it's a "J" thing...or maybe its because openly flawed people are the only ones I can stand anymore....


    edit: i just read through this thread and there are so many self-righteous people on this site and intpc...i don't try to change people, i just accept them--if they aren't good for me, i say good bye, but that is about me, not them. if someone seems to be drowning i reach for them, and if they take my hand, i don't let go...i'm a pretty strong swimmer...
    Well, thank God for the saints out there because I certainly am not one of them.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    My question to you: do you think these 'self-righteous' people in this thread are too far gone?
    no, i just think you think too highly of your own opinion and experience; but as i said, i don't look to change people, you are how you are.

    i disagree with everything you said about tough love--just about every kid living the street whoring themselves to stay "alive" is the product of tough love. tough love is bullshit.

    for every type animal in the world that some human has destroyed, there are people who dedicate their lives to patiently trying to nurse them back to health--they don't always succeed, some are too far gone, and so sometimes all they can to do is provide a safe haven for the animal to live out its life--but they never abandon an animal once they have committed to helping it. the only animal that we don't do this for is other humans, and yet this is the animal we fuck up the most.

    the thing we all need most is genuine acceptance, but most never experience this, even from their own parents and siblings. for sure, there are people with very serious troubles, but if they don't choose to solve them, or can't solve them, they still deserve a safe haven, which in humans is the acceptance of another human, even if it is only so they can die with some dignity. death isn't the worst thing in life--the worst thing in life is rejection and indifference.

    the only person who can save someone is that person themself. all that any of the rest of us can do for someone else, is give them a reason to try (in serious cases) or reassurance that it is ok for them just to be themself (in most normal cases).

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe
    How do you balance that with your family and work responsibilities? Doesn't dealing with the crises drain you and take your time, making it hard for you to be there for your spouse and children like you want?
    i'm not married and i have no children, but even if i did i don't see how it would be a problem; it hasn't been one yet--maybe because i am not trying to save them, or take on their burdens, i just try accept them--i just try reflect back the beauty i see in them. the only person i cannot do this for is myself...

    Quote Originally Posted by heart
    Well, thank God for the saints out there because I certainly am not one of them.
    i'm not a saint nor do i want to be--i don't have messiah complex (which some here seem to have).

    i don't believe in saints but i do have two heroes--Joesph Merrick and the doctor who took him into his home. i don't think i could have taken joseph in, and this shames me a great deal. nor do i think i could have continued to be kind and decent after having been so mistreated as joseph had been--you know he forgave the people who were horrified by his appearance.
    none of us, no, not one is perfect, and were we to love none who had imperfections, this world would be a desert for our love

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