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  1. #21
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Although it *should not* be, my demonic is Si...crap, I forget everything, including, but not limited to, the following:

    Where I left my keys, bag, and other random stuff (cell phone, books, etc.)

    Taking my keys (yes, I was the first person to arrive at school - but my ass was saved by luck, as my student was over 30 minutes late that day)

    Going to the gym, getting halfway to the bus station before realizing, CRAP! I forgot my gym bag. (And I'm only leaving to go to the gym)

    Appearing at class, totally forgetting someone's name, praying to the Higher Force that it won't be noticeable, and remember the name the second the class is over (nerves, blackout?)

    Getting to a test and blacking out on all the cool shit I knew off the cuff before. GAHHHH!!! I even know where it is on the page, but damn it, that part is BLANK!

    I *have* a class (thank God for diaries)

    My birthday

    Other people's birthday (including an ex of mine heh)

    My glasses, after realizing they are right in front of me/pushed up on my forehead

    Taking my cell phone with me (that was the braniac thing I did *today*)

    Books for class

    Random chores I hate doing (SHIT, I forgot to pick up laundry detergent and contact lens cleaner - guess I have to go and do that now!!!)
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  2. #22
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Which function has more certitude: Ni or Fi ?

    The more common idea seems to be the Js are more conclusive and certain, but it is rather unclear to me. I get confused between these two as well. I have heard that the INFP has underlying ethical standards that are more unwavering like "murder is wrong", and that principle is applied to various contexts whereas the Ni-Fe relies more heavily on context to determine the ethics and may find it is more or less ethical depending on circumstance. If that is the case, then it seems like Ni-Fe would be the more flexible system of thought, but that doesn't fit with the J model. For myself I test right in the middle of the J-P most of the time as well. I've also tried to see which group of people I feel more resonance with and find that there is a small group of INFJs I can identify with strongly, but most not at all. It's the ones who are especially analytical and view the world from a distance. I can identify to a lesser degree, but with more consistency with the majority of INFPs. I don't know if that approach would help you or not. It might leave you as confused as it leaves me. Ha.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    Although it *should not* be, my demonic is Si...crap, I forget everything, including, but not limited to, the following:
    I've got a horrible memory, too.

    Lacking Si could be explained by a "demonic" process or by an "inferior" process.. ENFPs have Si as inferior.

  4. #24
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    I have no "theory" to back what I'm saying... but based on observation from experience. If we label all the function of a type by numbers... dominant = 1, auxiliary = 2, tertiary = 3, inferior = 4, opposing = 5, witch = 6, trickster = 7, daemon = 8 (note: I hate the descriptor names.)

    Then INFJ would be
    1 = Ni,
    2 = Fe,
    3 = Ti,
    4 = Se,
    5 = Ne,
    6 = Fi,
    7 = Te,
    8 = Si

    Surprisingly, mostly people's function preference does not follow 1, 2, 3, 4, 5...

    Rather it goes something like 1 > 2 , 3 = or > than 5 > 4 , 7 > 6 >> 8.

    What I've also notice is that for most people, it's the 6th (aka witch) that tends to be the most problematic under stress. Not your inferior 4 or the daemon 8.

    For INFJs, the 6th is Fi. There's a tendency to feel insecure about the self and abilities/work. Thoughts like "Why aren't I good enough?" "I'll never be able to..." floats around when they're stressed out or depressed.

    For INFPs, the 6th is Ni. I have no idea what misbehaving Ni is suppose to be like since it's my dominant... fanciful unrealistic ideas? Some help from INFPs?
    My stuff (design & other junk) lives here: http://nnbox.ca

  5. #25
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    Rather it goes something like 1 > 2 , 3 = or > than 5 > 4 , 7 > 6 >> 8.
    i have zero trust in that test, that you are probably referring to. or maybe its how people answer these tests. can anyone give the "right" answers? anyone who has not downloaded enough of the function ideas to apply patterns on his traits, that are compatible with the tests questions?

    i did that test a year ago and got exactly the result that i expected (socionic infp), because i have the according understanding of the patterns...

  6. #26
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanook View Post
    i have zero trust in that test, that you are probably referring to. or maybe its how people answer these tests. can anyone give the "right" answers? anyone who has not downloaded enough of the function ideas to apply patterns on his traits, that are compatible with the tests questions?

    i did that test a year ago and got exactly the result that i expected (socionic infp), because i have the according understanding of the patterns...
    The bolded statement is what I find interesting.

    Wouldn't the test be much more useful and true to life if people took it and answered the questions honestly, without preconceived notions of what they're 'supposed' to be answering said questions as, to fit the pattern they're supposed to adhere to?

    All you're doing by taking the test that way is confirming the theory you've already decided as being accurate and true. You first decide the theory is accurate/true and 'understand the patterns'. You then look at your life and focus on everything in your life that fits those patterns, and you ignore everything in your life that doesn't fit those patterns. So you're selectively ignoring aspects of yourself that don't fit what they're supposed to fit into, and building up aspects of yourself that do fit the pattern. A good test should not require prior knowledge of function details. And if test results show people all over the place, not fitting recognizable function orders, then the entire theory should be questioned, the test altered, or definitions/understandings of functions themselves reassessed.

    It would be an interesting exercise, but I could probably rationalize myself into any number of types, by focusing on certain traits that I have and ignoring traits that I have that don't fit the type I want to put myself into.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  7. #27
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    think about what a test author does, when he asks people. he does not try to trick them intro revealing an unconscious truth, but hopes that people understand the questions. all i do is understanding the questions, the same way they were meant to be understood, and answering truthfully. other people answer randomly, based on misunderstanding the intention of the test-author, like stumbling blindly on a scrapyard. this is pointless and repeating it over the years will repeatedly lead to random test results. the "manipulation" is unconscious, random, rather than intelligently responsible.
    results of this particular test proof, that they answer randomly. you can not perform a test, without a testee who knows himself, knows him self in established terms. but they are not established enough. any test that tries to access unconscious truth around a potentially false selfimage would have to be like an intelligence test. such a test has not jet been invented. a test, where you can not answer questions at all, unless you make use of the related functions.

  8. #28
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Sure. But what if people DO understand the questions, and DO answer truthfully, but still end up all over the place, not adhering to any of the set function order patterns? That would be the case with most people on this forum, and I don't think it's because they lack self-awareness and aren't answering truthfully.

    As for 'potential false self image' - well, that's human nature. That's a given. Which also puts into question the entire testing method, and mbti being a self-assessment to begin with.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  9. #29
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    i just doubt, there are that much people who understand functions. most people create understanding of patterns based on the idea that these patterns are either what the have of what they don have. if they have assigned the wrong labels, memes, patters, types functions to them selves in the first place, they will assign correct introspective understanding to the wrong labels, memes, patterns, type, functions.

    also the test may be bad.

    if both the test and people would get it right, then typology would have been disprove by the test. if this was your point, that i would agree with your logic.

    but your point seems to be ... well .... i must be an lying idiot, because, after 5 years, i have arrived at an (still partial) understanding that is consistently not only matching me, but others as well.

  10. #30
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    I think there are two 'patterns' we're talking about here. You seem to be addressing patterns within the individual -- individual behavioral and cognitive patterns and tendencies and trends. That's one thing. That's self-awareness when it comes to your own personality and tendencies.

    Then I'm also talking about the cognitive function order patterns that are supposed to be a given for everyone of every type -- i.e. NiFeTiSeNeFiTeSi -- as a pattern set in stone that all INFJ's are supposed to follow.

    It's the latter that tests have not proven out as actually being *reality*. Perhaps it's a poor test. Or perhaps the theory itself is totally wrong. Or perhaps there shouldn't be tests at all for cognitive functions, as that's the wrong approach completely.

    I still maintain though that the test-taker should NOT have to have an awareness of mbti or cognitive functions before taking the test. In fact, that would be detrimental in my opinion, as he'd be much more biased in his answers if he knew what the questions were really getting at. Again, would be prone to answer as he knows he's 'supposed' to answer. In fact the test questions themselves shouldn't even be alluding to what cognitive function they're trying to get at. And it sounds like that's one thing you and I disagree on -- you think test-takers should have a thorough understanding of the functions before taking the test, I don't think they should. If the questions were good, and actually would point to specific functions, then there would be no need for the user to have prior knowledge.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

    My Photography and Watercolor Fine Art Prints!!! Cascade Colors Fine Art Prints
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