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  1. #51
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    OMG, I just went to the Lovetypes Website and it says that my ideal matches are other ENFPs and ENFJs.

    ENFJs? I have some ENFJ friends, but in general, they tend to drive me nuts.

    This guy's system is batshit crazy. (OK, this is the second time I've used this term in a post today. But I love it soooo much. It's my crush word for the day.)

  2. #52
    Cat Wench ReadingRainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    OMG, I just went to the Lovetypes Website and it says that my ideal matches are other ENFPs and ENFJs.

    ENFJs? I have some ENFJ friends, but in general, they tend to drive me nuts.

    This guy's system is batshit crazy. (OK, this is the second time I've used this term in a post today. But I love it soooo much. It's my crush word for the day.)
    It's a good damn term. I use it often. That guy's system is ludacris. Some of the match ups are okay, but the way he explains it is like, totally horrible. Plus I really think the Fe/Fi divide is bigger than it is given credit to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    St. Stephen took rocks and St. Sebastian took arrows. You only have to take some jerks on an internet forum. Nut up.

  3. #53
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    I like two systems for determining best pairings:

    PersonalityPage.com

    You may be interested in understanding how we came to the conclusion that certain types are ideal for each other. Our type pairing is a result of combining observation, research, and understanding of Jungian psychological type. Observation and research of married couples shows that there is a definite trend in types that are attracted to each other, and in type combinations that have the longest lasting relationships. Our understanding of psychological type helps to see that these types typically have the same dominant function, but with a different attitude.

    In Jungian terms, "functions" refer to the four core traits: Intuition (N), Sensing (S), Feeling (F), and Thinking (T). The term "attitude" refers to the direction of the function, i.e. Introverted (I) or Extraverted (E).

    So, for example, a person with a personality type of ISFP has a dominant function of Introverted Feeling. More specifically, Feeling in the dominant function, and its attitude (or direction) is Introverted. A person with this personality type is likely to be most attracted to, and fit best with, a person that has Extraverted Feeling dominating their personality. Extraverted Feeling dominates the personality types ESFJ and ENFJ. We therefore determine that the ISFP's natural partner is the ESFJ or the ENFJ.

    Our natural attraction to people who share our dominant function, but who use it in a different direction works very well for us. We not only flip-flop the Introverted or Extraverted trait, but we also flip-flop the Judging or Perceiving trait. In this way, the partner that we choose for ourselves will have a very different approach to dealing with the world. If we are laid-back and indecisive, our partner will be structured and decisive. If we are reserved, our partner will be outgoing. For all of our apparent differences, we will share a common vision of what's truly important in life.

    For people whose personality types are dominated by Decision Making functions, (i.e. Thinking or Feeling), their ideal partners will include both Sensing and Intuitive types. Many people have problems communicating effectively with people who do not share their same preference for Information Gathering. So, if you have a very strong preference for Sensing or Intuition, you will need to give the personality type with the same preference a higher value as a likely natural partner. For example, an ISFP who strongly prefers Sensing will work best with an ESFJ, rather than an ENFJ.

    Although we believe firmly that this model works very well to help in finding and maintaining healthy relationships, it is important to remember that it's just a tool. We offer guidelines to help you understand the kinds of things that you value in a relationship, rather than guidelines that you need to follow strictly. Two well-developed individuals of any type can make a relationship work. And work is a key concept here! There is no such thing as an effortless relationship. Don't use this model as an excuse to dump your relationship.
    Socionics Model of Duality

    What makes dual relations different from all others is that partners are fully rewarded psychologically for applying their strengths and being their normal selves. What is your "normal" self? — your path of least resistance, the way you do things when you stop monitoring yourself and stop thinking about how you should be acting. This "normal" behavior is what makes sense to duals and what doesn't make sense to most other people at a close psychological distance.

    As such, dual relations are highly therapeutic. Partners gradually discover their "true" selves and gain an understanding of their inner emotional and psychological territory, their interaction styles, what things they need in other people, and what other people need them for. This understanding is objective because it comes through the other person, who sees aspects of his or her partner's functioning that are inaccessible to the other's awareness under normal conditions. This understanding and the "balancing out" that occurs in dual relations facilitates stable self-awareness in partners, who gradually learn to control what is going on in their external and internal life. This creates optimal conditions for developing one's strengths and achieving other goals in life.

    The word "dualization" refers to the harmonizing process that occurs through extended close interaction with one's duals. People who had duals in their immediate family growing up are naturally quite a bit "in tune" to their duals' wavelength, while those who did not may be profoundly affected by their first experience of duality.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Neutralpov's Avatar
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    Default good stuff

    Socionics Model of Duality sounds really good. Thanks for posting.

    I picked up the Lovetypes book again this weekend to refresh my mind if it is still good and I gotta say the book is pretty insightful. For ENFJ it points out our core nature better than some of the websites like personalitypage. ENFJ's really are relational to the core and it even addresses our weaknesses that I feel are passed over in other books (like our 100% emotional investment in relationships or causes can lead to problems). It mentions the fact that we give 110% in relationships until one day we wake up and evaluate the other person and if they aren't giving us priority we can be harsh and disappointed. SO TRUE! (maybe this is idealism in detail.)

    But I can't speak for other types. Also I do think the website is dumb and incomplete.
    Extroverted (E) 67.74% Introverted (I) 32.26%
    Intuitive (N) 51.72% Sensing (S) 48.28%
    Feeling (F) 51.61% Thinking (T) 48.39%
    Judging (J) 69.44% Perceiving (P) 30.56%

    Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||||||||||||| 83%
    so/sx/sp

  5. #55
    Junior Member latentorganization's Avatar
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    Default Pairing Types

    In my observation, pairing romantic relationships works best using Keirsey's model. To find one's best romantic pairing switch all letters except the S/N. For example, I'm a ENFJ and my romantic opposite would be a INTP. (Which sucks cuz finding a female INTP is nearly impossible.)

    Every INTP relationship I've had, only platonic so far, has been incredible. They understand and support my interests, keep up with my level of conversation, and love discussing the logistical details of abstract structures. (When I say structures I don't mean specifically but the literal is also true.)

    I reference and am giving credit to Keirsey in the next paragraph from his book, "Please Understand Me". Cheesy title - great book.

    He says that INTPs appreciate and adore the enthusiasm and intelligent sparkle they posses. Their ability to follow and contribute to their ideas is rare as well as having great social skills which does not come naturally to the INTP.

    ENFJ's love to be their INTPs Cheerleader. At social events INTPs love to be deferred to for questions in their field or even out of their field. When ever an ENFJ comes across a question in a social event and asks the INTP in front of others, "Hey, INTP, would you .....". Just being able to have the privilege to answer when asked with such high regard makes INTP's feel special and we know how much we like to make people feel special.

    I am completely convinced that an INTP woman is for me.

  6. #56
    Junior Member latentorganization's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    OMG, I just went to the Lovetypes Website and it says that my ideal matches are other ENFPs and ENFJs.

    ENFJs? I have some ENFJ friends, but in general, they tend to drive me nuts.

    This guy's system is batshit crazy. (OK, this is the second time I've used this term in a post today. But I love it soooo much. It's my crush word for the day.)
    For sure, I haven't been to lovetypes but it seems nuts. I couldn't see myself with another NF cuz we'ed stir up some nuts-o dogmatic BS. I need rationalization.

  7. #57
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by latentorganization View Post
    I am completely convinced that an INTP woman is for me.
    Well who am I to say what would work for an ENFJ. If it makes you happy, do it. But ENFJ and INTP? Friends. Perhaps. But dating? Long term happiness. Helllllll no. I just can't see it.

    And, I do have several female INTP friends. The only one I know with whom ENFJ-INTP dating has come up said... and I quote...."He [ENFJ] tried to act like he was my older brother or something. It really bugged the crap out of me. And his advice was all based on his feelings instead of looking at things logically." I found this interesting because Socionics intertype relations theory predicts that the ENFJ will take on a teacher / mentor role with the INTP.

    I have noticed a propensity for couplings between ENFJ and INFP. And this would be consistent with the PersonalityPage.com theory. ENFJs have Dominant Fe. INFPs have dominant Fi. Several of my INFP friends are in serious relationships with ENFJs.

    Back to Kiersey's theory.... I just can't imagine that any long term coupling with someone who has three of four opposite letters would not be fraught with problems. I see the initial attraction at what is different, but I think that the personality page described perfectly why such short term attraction was a long term recipe for disaster:

    Opposites Attract

    That old concept and expression "opposites attract" has been batted around for centuries. And in fact, it's very true when it comes to love relationships. Through our research, we have noted that people are usually attracted to their opposite on the Extraversion/Introversion and Judging/Perceiving scales. We naturally are drawn towards individuals who have strengths which we are missing. While we are highly attracted to our opposites, two opposites involved in an intimate relationship have significant issues and communication barriers to overcome.

    The same cannot be said for other kinds of relationships. When it comes to work colleagues, or friends, we are not especially interested in dealing with people who are very unlike ourselves. We are most comfortable with those who have similar interests and perspectives, and we do not show a lot of motivation or patience for dealing with our opposites.

    Although we are attracted to people who are very different from us in the way we deal with the world, we are most attracted to others who have a similar focus in their lives. Couples who have the same dominant function in their personalities seems to have the longest and happiest relationships.
    So according to this theory, we may be intensely attracted to our opposite (e.g., ENFJ to INTP) for romantic relationships. But we're even more attracted to those on our same wavelength. What is the same wavelength? Temperament? That means you'd have to have the N and F in common.

    NTs with NTs
    NFs with NFs
    SJs with SJs
    SPs with SPs

    Which sounds like a pretty sound theory to me. Of course, any two people can make any relationship work. Just some take more work than others.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Yeah...I could write a lot more about it but don't think that's 'right'.

    I added this to the end of my post though -- Boils down to whether BOTH people are respectful of the others' differences, and whether both want to work for it and maintain it.
    This is, in essence, why I decided to leave my ISTP husband. We talked about this but it would never change: I was doing most of the adjusting, and he was frustrated and angry with me too much of the time because I wasn't like him.

  9. #59
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    I've seen INFJ - ESTP work perfectly, but it's more of an exception than a rule.

    Quote Originally Posted by latentorganization View Post
    In my observation, pairing romantic relationships works best using Keirsey's model. To find one's best romantic pairing switch all letters except the S/N.
    Seconded.

  10. #60
    Junior Member latentorganization's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Well who am I to say what would work for an ENFJ. If it makes you happy, do it. But ENFJ and INTP? Friends. Perhaps. But dating? Long term happiness. Helllllll no. I just can't see it.

    And, I do have several female INTP friends. The only one I know with whom ENFJ-INTP dating has come up said... and I quote...."He [ENFJ] tried to act like he was my older brother or something. It really bugged the crap out of me. And his advice was all based on his feelings instead of looking at things logically." I found this interesting because Socionics intertype relations theory predicts that the ENFJ will take on a teacher / mentor role with the INTP.

    ...

    NTs with NTs
    NFs with NFs
    SJs with SJs
    SPs with SPs
    I'll just go right out and say that I really don't subscribe to the socionics after discovering temp theory in the Keisian way so I do lean in that direction.

    But the relationship you saw or heard about with the ENFJ who acted as a big brother had a classic case of ENFJ dogmatic syndrome. The ENFJs that I knew growing up were not attuned to their thinking yet and preferred to make things sound wise when there really wasn't a good answer to be said. It's like they want things to be all figured out when all things aren't figured out yet. INTPs know that, but the ENFJ wishes he/she can explain the universe. Basically, it's an ego thing. The part about ENFJ and INTP relationship being about how the ENFJ is overbearing is a shortcoming of the ENFJ not learning to think about what they are saying. If this is the case in a ENFJ/INTP relationship, then the INTP needs to say, "Dude, stop acting like you know what's best for me, what I should be doing, and what I might do next. Go freakin' lecture to a group of kids if you think you're so damn smart." If I was acting like a big brother so someone I would wish to be intimate with, I should hope I would be grossed out.

    ENFJ/INTP is a relationship of sharing ideas; it should never be a one way street. It took me until I was about 26 to understand that lectures should be given if and only if I'm 99% to 100% sure that my audience wants to hear me. INTPs love hearing information that is: informative, accurate, credible and relevant. The moment I hear myself straying from one of these four guidelines, I shut up. I find many ENFJs very obnoxious (esp male ones)
    because of these simple shortcomings the ENFJ has developed.

    I believe this shortcoming of the ENFJ has manifested itself because no one stepped up to them and gently or no-so-gently cut them down a peg saying, "Look, you need to think about what your saying here cuz we're tried of hearing your random hypotheses." I wish someone would have told me that I long time ago without me having to figure it out for my self.

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