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Thread: INFJ Trouble

  1. #51
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    this is absolutely what heidegger means. he goes from being-in-time where he tries to understand the ontological Being thru the being of humans (da-sein), to a changed understanding that human language and poetics specifically are the highest articulation of Being, the highest form of self-disclosure/self-understanding/self-expression the world has produced. and that, as such, they have an ontological status, are a necessary part of the equation that makes up reality, that Being in fact IS the belonging together of language and world.
    Oh so I did actually understand! This is great because I always feel stupid talking about this stuff with other people, especially this particular INFJ, because I never feel like I understand work like this 100%. Sometimes I think it's because the structure of the writing is specifically not meant to be understood 100% by anyone, which is totally why the INFJ (and ENTP) likes it, and totally why I tend to have problems with it. In other words, the question "is it true" is just not one that you ask with something like Heidegger.

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    heidegger is amusing and kind of nostalgic for me, but i find a much deeper and more lasting affinity with deleuze. i like wittgenstein, the anthropologist gregory bateson, henri bergson, the french sociologist pierre bourdieu, and of course jung. derrida is ok too, as if foucault and the science studies writer bruno latour.
    Ooh, now I tend to like Foucault, and I've just been familiarizing myself with Latour. Deleuze I cannot understand for the life of me, something about machines and lines of flight and ribosomes. I haven't read much Bourdieu, but I like what I have read. Derrida is also slightly incomprehensible to me, though I have admittedly put little effort into understanding. As a whole, though, this kind of stuff is very interesting.

    Additionally, I also find George Lakoff and his work on metaphors to be extremely interesting...how the metaphors that we use in daily speech (such as up and down) are really abstract extensions of our root bodily experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i majored in anthropology and religious studies. i was interested in all forms of theory i encountered. my senior year i was moving more towards cultural studies, it was sleeker- the methods were more free and it was rooted in semiotics and hermeneutics in a more directly cultural artifacts art media/medium kind of way, whereas anth is more predicated on cultural practices, ritual, social organization, etc. i was always more interested in art than aborigines.
    Oh wow, that is awesome. I have a classmate in my graduate school cohort who is doing religious studies as a secondary MA to his rhetoric PhD. From what he says and the material he brings up, it sounds like a very interesting area of study. And I always liked anthropology...especially this one course that I took in undergrad entitled "linguistic anthropology." This is where I got to read some Bourdieu.

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    what about you?
    I study rhetoric, though my focus is less on the cultural studies or critical theory side of it (hence my confusion), and more on argumentation and rhetoric of science.

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    inf of both types do this way too much. we at times lose the ability to let go of our self-definitions and idealist frameworks. we misperceive our ideas and our convictions and our concepts as ourselves. especially the ones that don't take a breather and appreciate getting silly at the bar. we take everything personally from every possible angle and every perspective we possibly could. it can be downright ridiculous. i apologize on behalf of myself and others like me.
    No need to apologize. If it weren't for this sensitivity, then you wouldn't all tend to have that pretty consciousness that I have come to like so much. I envy you.

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    this is very forgiveable, introverts do this often. there's a lot of mutual interest/attractions in infj intp, so stick with it and something good'll come of it. infj can be paranoid and overprotective of itself, but good faith gestures go a looooong ways. try to thaw her out.
    Yeah, I will definitely try, because intuitive people are hard enough to find, and it's even harder to find intuitive people that I actually like. And she was not hurt over that particular incident, so your comment about being forgiving to other introverts on this point seems to be holding.
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  2. #52
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TucsonENTP View Post
    The I the S the F the J spells trouble! No for real, she sounds like an unhealthy type for sure, I would figure out the X, I'm betting you'll find it between the I and the F. Totally 100% sounds like an ISFJ to me, I'm surprised more people haven't pointed out her not sounding very INFJ.
    Why don't you think she sounds very INFJ? I mean, this isn't a "type my friend" thread, so I haven't really presented all of the aspects of her personality that are visible to me. I've only talked about the ones related to the issue I'm discussing (which is an issue that would make anyone seem unhealthy if all you considered were the parts of their personality that contributed to the problem). But this is such an obvious consideration that I have trouble understanding why you don't seem to have made it before posting.
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  3. #53
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    Maybe it's time for you and your INFJ friend to discuss MBTI theory? It might help her to understand your intentions.
    We have mentioned it before...she said that when she took the test in her undergrad, she came out balanced on the T/F scale. But seeing as how her mission in life is to save the world from further ethical deterioration through articulating a better understanding of humankind's relationship to language, plus all of her other manifold feeler qualities, I interpreted that as meaning that she was more F than T, heh. Plus, later on it fit into my typing of her as INFJ, since their tertiary Ti supposedly makes them the most T-ish intellectualizing of the bunch.

    I think she may understand on some level, because when she asked me what I was (she brought the topic up), she assumed that I was a T of some kind. I told her I was and she didn't seem surprised.

    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    Even with ENTP's, I think their dominant Ne and just being more people-oriented as extraverts takes some of the edge off of their Ti. I've sarcastically made light of things to an ENTP philosophy professor and also an ENTP colleague because I knew they were ENTP's. They were somewhat shocked and slightly abraded by my comments, even though they understand MBTI and even know I'm an INTP.
    So you're saying that it's Ti that's responsible for the poor uptake of INTP sarcasm? What do you think it is about Ti that makes the sarcasm less bearable than that of an ENTP? I know I have to deal with the shocked looks of folks a lot after I say something that I find funny.

    In fact, it even happened today when, after one of my students had given a speech about the history of the particular building that we're in (a cathedral of sorts), I commented to the class that I should make someone give a speech about the history of people dying from elevator malfunctions. It was supposed to be a joking reference to the height of our cathedral (as emphasized by the person in their speech) and a common place that we share about the rickety-ness of the elevators. They all stared at me like I was crazy (though I did get one snicker from someone in the back).

    The INFJ sometimes likes my humor, though. I remember one time I gave her a humorous observation that I'd made about some crazy guy that got kicked off the bus for not paying his fare, and she laughed and said I was a twisted individual. She just does not like it directed at her or anything that she values. I guess I should expect this from feelers in general, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    For much of my life, I balanced my T with introversion, but soon discovered that's not really the best way. I found that if I let Ne deal with the external world and interactions with people, things were much easier and even more fun. I think much of this is because Ne allows me to see things from more of an F perspective. Focusing more on Ne also made me more extraverted in general.
    I should learn to do this. Any tips?
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  4. #54
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrielle View Post
    Well I know when people ask, "what's going on with your life?" and I haven't spoken to them on a regular basis, it's very very hard to me to figure out what to say. Most of the time I don't remember what specifically has happened and I need them to ask something more specific (like "so did you go anywhere interesting or different?" which is easier and less general). The question is so general, I can't help but give a general answer. I hate doing it too, because I know they're expecting me to elaborate, but I would need several minutes to sort of piece together what I recall happening and put flags on events that I deemed worth sharing with that specific person. The trouble with my memory, is I don't usually earmark events that are interesting.

    But yes, sometimes I feel something isn't clicking anymore with someone I haven't seen in years, it feels really really weird to talk to them. I feel like we're miles apart. Sometimes talking with them suddenly becomes annoying because of this feeling of being on different planes. It makes me question if we were ever even on the same plane to start with...did we ever have that much in commmon? Was there ever anything beyond a surface-level interaction? When I discover that there wasn't, that the two of us never really got beyond the "enjoyable acquaintance level", I feel less inclined to work to bring the relationship back to a cohesive whole.

    The trouble is...I don't always know if I'm deluding myself or if I'm correct in what I'm perceiving.

    Yet, there are some people who I've lost contact with and when I suddenly talk to them again, it's easy and fluid and relaxed and I like seeing them again and talking to them again even though everything is different. I think that's the difference...is somewhere with that person there was some small connection on a deeper level. And eventhough time has separated interaction between us, that connection is still there and makes it easier to pick up right where we left off.
    Thanks for the detailed explanation.

    The red description is something that I've seen happen, it really is frustrating being given a general answer to such a question. Example: I knew that my INFJ friend had become vegetarian. Yet this information was never revealed when asked what was happening in their life. To be honest... While I can appreciate that the question is too general. When two people haven't spoken in several months, it's extremely hard to find any specifics to comment on as the information will most likely be out of date. Thus I usually resort to the most basic question to actually find out what's happening, and hopefully find something new.

    I've also seen the yellow part in play, mostly when the other INFJ was breaking down. It sounds like one of those horrible self-fufilling cycles.

    There are some friendships that I have that I know are stable friendships and I can easily go back to them whenever... Then there are others who I might interpret as having become distant and thus starts the whole re-building process. However distant doesn't necessarily imply different. Which is another rant of mine. Why can't two people with different interests be friends? (Don't answer that.)

    Quote Originally Posted by paisley1 View Post
    I totally resonate with this. I hate it when people ask "what's going on with your life?" It's so ridiculous, I'd rather they just ask the immediate, "How're you?" of right now, so I could at least give an answer beyond, "Nothing." The other social custom I hate is the "So, how was your weekend?" My inside response is, "What the fuck are you talking about? What's the difference between the weekend and the weekday? Like really? Not that hell of a lot!" As well, it's only a select few I would talk to about such things anyway, and I almost feel like random people asking that question are just prying and looking for dirt on me, so I'm dismissive, but curteous.
    The bolded part is what I find interesting. Why exactly do you feel that way about other people asking such questions?

    You'd interpret "How're you?" as a more open-ended question than "what's going on with your life?" - Surely that's not right... The first one just tends to generate normal responses like 'Good' 'Not bad' 'Alright thanks' so how would you respond to such a question?

    Most of the time unless I don't really want to discuss about my life. I'll operate on the basis: If someone asks me a question. I'll give them a honest reply. Likewise if I'm asking someone the question... I'm not looking for the standard response when asking friends otherwise it's pointless exercise. You've essentially forced both parties into 'polite social standard' conversation. But meh... social conditioning is a strong factor in psychology.

    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    well, i abhor 'formal polite conversation' as meer drivel that keeps that person and myself from talking about real things.

    and if i don't go into detail when you ask me "how's it been going?" it's because i want to focus on you, and because i don't think you want to hear what i've really had going on........
    Haha oh dear.

    Having said all of that. I just usually view "How're you?"/"How's you're weekend?" from aquaintances as social practice to show that you acknowledge their prescence. But not close enough to go further... The same applies for the idea of small talk.

  5. #55
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TucsonENTP View Post
    The I the S the F the J spells trouble! No for real, she sounds like an unhealthy type for sure, I would figure out the X, I'm betting you'll find it between the I and the F. Totally 100% sounds like an ISFJ to me, I'm surprised more people haven't pointed out her not sounding very INFJ.
    I'm a bit sceptical of all these INFJ "typings," but this one sounds like INFJ.

  6. #56
    Senior Member paisley1's Avatar
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    I'd respond with "meh.." and continuing doing what I was doing. If they keep asking questions (which is the type of person I'm referring to) I'd keep saying "meh.." until they left. A general attitude of indifference to the question is what they would get from me.
    "Truth stands true, independent of whether you agree with it or not."

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    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Haha.
    It's certainly a different answer from 'Nothing' ^^;

  8. #58
    Buddhist Misanthrope Samvega's Avatar
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    Why don't you think she sounds very INFJ? I mean, this isn't a "type my friend" thread, so I haven't really presented all of the aspects of her personality that are visible to me. I've only talked about the ones related to the issue I'm discussing (which is an issue that would make anyone seem unhealthy if all you considered were the parts of their personality that contributed to the problem). But this is such an obvious consideration that I have trouble understanding why you don't seem to have made it before posting.
    I didn't leave out the possibility that she's IxFJ or that she's just a very unhealthy INFJ. If she is however an INFJ that doesn't ask for clarification, hasn't been able to figure out how you work or has and is expecting you to be something different. I mean, I could go on but I don't know an INFJ like this, I know ISFJs like this. She also seems like she wants to avoid conflict not clear the air, I don't know, stick to calling her an INFJ if you like and spend the rest of your time trying to figure out why the INFJ keeps behaving in the same ways an ISFJ would.

    I'm a bit sceptical of all these INFJ "typings," but this one sounds like INFJ.
    I agree with you about all the INFJ "siting" and know you well enough to know you're the real deal (: All the same while the forums seem heavy with INFJ/INTJs I'm sure that has a lot to do with the introverted side of these times and the fact that other introverts like ISXXs are too busy making small talk to come into the forums.

  9. #59
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TucsonENTP View Post
    I didn't leave out the possibility that she's IxFJ or that she's just a very unhealthy INFJ.
    You still haven't said anything about why you think she's either not INFJ, or if INFJ, an unhealthy one.

    Quote Originally Posted by TucsonENTP View Post
    If she is however an INFJ that doesn't ask for clarification, hasn't been able to figure out how you work or has and is expecting you to be something different.
    Okay, so here we are approaching some possible reasons. Let's go into these individually, shall we?

    Re: clarification: Let me get the claim straight...you are saying that she is likely not INFJ because she has failed to ask or confront me directly for clarification regarding our mutual communication problem? Alright. Even granted that this is some sort of quintessential INFJ trait, which it likely is not, to desire to confront someone for 'clarification' presupposes that there is a problem that needs to be clarified. Like I have said several times, I am citing a trend that I noticed in her behavior towards me, and speculating about the causes. It may well be that her periods of reticence and awkwardness towards me originate, not in any problem that she perceives with me, but from something internal to her (her mental and emotional state, etc.,). If that is the case, then she would see no need for clarifying anything.

    It's just that I don't see any reason to think that her failure to approach me for clarification means definitively that she doesn't perceive a problem with my behavior (that she doesn't get offended by my behavior and thus alter her communication with me). In fact, to conclude so would be to affirm the consequent. For that reason, it makes sense to continue to explore the possibility that my behavior is upsetting her, but that she is failing to confront or approach me about the problem. And this could be for several reasons, none of which preclude her from being INFJ (introversion, shyness, distrust of perceptions, embarrassment, lack of feedback on my part).

    In sum, I have argued that her failure to "ask for clarification" signifies either that she does not perceive anything to be clarified (which would be good for me, since I would know that it's not about me), or that she does perceive something but is held back by other factors. Nothing about being INFJ precludes these possibilities.

    Now, Re: figuring out how I work: you are saying that the fact that she doesn't have a comprehensive understanding of how I work means that she is likely not INFJ. First off, I would certainly take issue with the veracity of your premise. Do all INFJs figure out how their friends work, and thereby avoid such communication conflicts as the one I'm describing? I suspect that you may be falling pray to what cascademn mentioned...you are putting INFJs on some sort of pedestal. Regardless of what I suspect is causing your misconceptions, however, there are still problems with your claim.

    First, there is the problem that I am a particularly inexpressive, non-self-revealing INTP (or whatever type, all that matters is that I am really, really not self-revealing). Because of this, you can hardly expect that she have some sort of comprehensive understanding of my personality, though as I have hinted in other posts, she is not lacking in perception. She recognizes trends in my behavior and tries to accommodate my personality when we're together. For instance, she will respond laughingly to my jokes, even though I know it's a bit forced, or is just peeking through behind the wall of her value-laden reservations. But I digress...the point is that I have not given her quite enough data to really understand me, thus severely limiting the degree to which I can expect her to understand me.

    Second, even if she did understand how I worked, that would be a secondary issue as to whether she valued me. And that's my central question: is her inconsistent communication pattern a sign that she doesn't value me as a friend? She could have as transparent an understanding of me as humanly possible, but that would not necessitate that she value me enough to continue friendship. In fact, it could be because of an understanding of how I work that she has the reservations of trust that limit her communication with me on occasions.

    In sum, I have argued that your claim that not understanding me = not INFJ is faulty because (1) it is not a realistic trait for any type, (2) even if it were, I haven't given her enough information to work with, and (3) even if it were, and she had all the information she needed to understand me, her great understanding would not necessitate improvement of our communication situation. Or, stating (3) differently, her inconsistent communication with me does not support the inference that she does not understand me.

    Of course, you recognized (3) because you stated that "or has and is expecting you to be something different", meaning that you recognize the possibility that she might understand me, but not like me anyway (enough to wish I were something different). The problem with asserting that this goes against her INFJness is that it puts INFJs on a pedestal once again. INFJs are human, and just like any human, there are other humans whom they might not want in their lives (or only to a minimal degree). They are not universally benevolent. She may completely understand me, not want to be friends, AND not have the desire for me to be something different. I would think that she (and all INFJs for that matter) could recognize and respect differences between people without necessarily being friends with everyone. In other words, am I to assume that she wishes everyone who is not her friend for one reason or another were different?

    Quote Originally Posted by TucsonENTP View Post
    I mean, I could go on but I don't know an INFJ like this, I know ISFJs like this. She also seems like she wants to avoid conflict not clear the air, I don't know, stick to calling her an INFJ if you like and spend the rest of your time trying to figure out why the INFJ keeps behaving in the same ways an ISFJ would.
    As to this, I would only mention that, as you and others are wont to point out, INFJs are a rare breed. Therefore you can't have known enough INFJs to have a representative sample of their behavior from experience. Or even ISFJs for that matter.

    Further, I didn't know that avoiding conflict was not an INFJ trait . I thought this was something that was pretty common among INFX, ISFX, and INTP, at the very least.

    And you can stick to calling her ISFJ if you want, based on my limited description of her behavior (which you still haven't recognized as too limited to come to a type consideration, which it undoubtedly is) and your cockamamie notions of what an INFJ should look like. At least do me the favor of posting some advice on dealing with ISFJs in your next post, as then you would actually have contributed something semi-useful to the thread.

    Thanks.
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    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Orangey, I like your post. I think you raise a lot of good points. It would take too long for me to break it down by paragraph though (even though it might be deserving of it).

    But to reiterate and also add a few comments of my own -- 1. I don't know why the behavior Orangey has described would automatically be termed as 'Unhealthy'. In the context of either an INFJ or an ISFJ. Sure, it might not be 'ideal', and like I said, I can't relate to aspects of it, but people are individuals in the end, and we all have NON-MBTI hangups or reactions/behaviors that are developed based on experiences we've had, or defense mechanisms, or other things. 2. There isn't any 'rule' that says INFJ's aren't going to, or can't, exhibit traits or behaviors that would be more typical or, perhaps I should say, more stereotypical, of other types. And exhibiting said behavior doesn't mean they're unhealthy. 3. There's an INFJ/ISFJ thread in another part of the forum that highlights different members' perceptions of the differences, and I posted my opinion there. Yes, there are obviously some key differences. But to be completely honest, there are a lot of similarities as well -- I mean, we both share the same extroverted function. I know I recognize several similarities between myself and my ISFJ friend. 4. It's been joked about in many threads that INFJ's are avoidant. Specifically, conflict avoidant. For me personally, while on the job, or doing those sorts of things or tasks, I'm pretty fearless and will stand my ground and don't have a fear of authority or anything like that. On an interpersonal, social level, though, I'd probably be considered avoidant. A better word might be 'preventative'. Trying to keep things such that conflicts don't arise in the first place. But it should be noted that in cases where I don't have enough data at all, and am waiting for more data, I might not be able to prevent conflict. Because I don't have enough to work with, or the relationship itself hasn't been solidified or defined in my mind. But regardless - the nature of human relationships is such that conflict at some point is inevitable, no matter what type(s) you are.

    I posted this a few days ago in another thread, but think it fits in here -

    It can be a quandary. There are obviously certain people, and certain dynamics, who/that I click with almost instantaneously, and a lot of it is how I interpret that persons' intentions and sincerity. And like I said before, that they actually DO have a desire and interest to get to know me. Their 'Realness' and trueness to themselves, yet wanting to know me too - which would be an action/initiation on their part. It's not my intent to ever change a persons' natural inclinations. So when they're not *naturally inclined* to jive with me or connect with me, it's not something I want to change (because I don't want to change them!), but I'll step back or might need to assess the whole relationship - I might be a lot more hesitant or confused as to how to 'proceed', or whether I even want to proceed. And that's something that sometimes will take time for me to sort out.

    I am pretty sure the outside observer would perceive me as giving mixed signals, at best, when I'm in this stage. I like to know where the relationship stands, and *especially* in the absence of signals or information (i.e. if the other person doesn't tell me enough or give me enough of anything to *really* know, for sure), I'll be in this uncomfortable mid-zone where I quite honestly might not even know myself what I want out of the relationship, or whether the relationship can be forged at all (this is the case when I'm not able to get a good read or good understanding of the other person). Hence, potential mixed signals, and like I said, not knowing how I want to 'proceed'. At the bottom of it all is usually intuition, giving me a pretty good idea of the other person, but I often don't really like to rely solely on that - I want more evidence or want to 'play it out' to see how things unfold, before I really determine how the relationship stands, or if there really IS potential. I think, to my disadvantage at times, I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, even if I tend to have a hunch from the get-go that it isn't going to work -- just because sometimes things DO unfold over time. I'm certainly not a psychic. I've certainly made mistakes. Hence, I don't exclusively rely on my intuitive feel of another person. These final two paragraphs have only really applied a handful of times in my life - so, not often. And it's always when I don't know yet, or haven't decided yet, what the relationship really IS. And tied to that - not knowing what the *other* person wants it to be! So, many unknowns. And, I tend not to push the issue for many reasons - one being that I feel the need to reach internal clarity first without having to involve the other person in what is mostly my own internal processing and uncertainty. *phew!*
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