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Thread: INFJ Trouble

  1. #21
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascademn View Post


    I can't personally relate to it, as I don't think I'm one to get as easily offended/hurt, but yes. If she's obviously hurt about it, explain it. Doesn't even have to be a huge drawn-out conversation. Just..'Hey, I'm sorry about last week, that you weren't able to meet my sibling. It totally wasn't planned - I wasn't even planning or wanting to introduce him to anyone...we just bumped into my other friend and got some food. If he comes back to town again, I'll be sure to introduce you guys." The end.
    Sounds friendly, casual, and unassuming. Thanks .

    And I think I may have under-qualified her level of hurt at the situation. I only said that I may have pissed her off (taken from some info I got from the mutual friend earlier today) , but she may not even care at this point. It's not like she gets into some overtly pissy mood with me or anything or acts hurt and mopey...it's FAR more subtle than that. And I'm sure that if I asked her about it, she would deny it even if she were actually hurt.

    I just used this as an example of some of the things I do that, when taken cumulatively, could lead her to have suspicions that I don't like her, and therefore cause her to trust and communicate with me less (which I have been noticing as a bit of a pattern in our interaction).
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  2. #22
    Senior Member Kyrielle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    These two paragraphs resonate with my experiences. I find it kind of unique and odd that conversations, after a long period of time end up having to go through the whole 'formal polite conversation' phase once again. Why do people engage in this sort of behaviour and what does it mean?

    Question for the INFJs out there. (Apologies for hijacking the thread.)
    The paradox that is...

    INFJ decides that there is not much in common. INFJ doesn't let other person know what's been happening in their life. Therefore confirming their own belief that things have changed between both people. This cycle seems to occur more often when people haven't spoken to each others for long period of times. All based off my own experience when the INFJ would sometimes comment 'so much has happened' without really going into much depth.

    Any identification?

    Well I know when people ask, "what's going on with your life?" and I haven't spoken to them on a regular basis, it's very very hard to me to figure out what to say. Most of the time I don't remember what specifically has happened and I need them to ask something more specific (like "so did you go anywhere interesting or different?" which is easier and less general). The question is so general, I can't help but give a general answer. I hate doing it too, because I know they're expecting me to elaborate, but I would need several minutes to sort of piece together what I recall happening and put flags on events that I deemed worth sharing with that specific person. The trouble with my memory, is I don't usually earmark events that are interesting.

    If you ask me that question, and I just talked to you last week, it's much easier to give a detailed answer because less will have turned into a sort of blur.

    But yes, sometimes I feel something isn't clicking anymore with someone I haven't seen in years, it feels really really weird to talk to them. I feel like we're miles apart. Sometimes talking with them suddenly becomes annoying because of this feeling of being on different planes. It makes me question if we were ever even on the same plane to start with...did we ever have that much in commmon? Was there ever anything beyond a surface-level interaction? When I discover that there wasn't, that the two of us never really got beyond the "enjoyable acquaintance level", I feel less inclined to work to bring the relationship back to a cohesive whole.

    The trouble is...I don't always know if I'm deluding myself or if I'm correct in what I'm perceiving.

    Yet, there are some people who I've lost contact with and when I suddenly talk to them again, it's easy and fluid and relaxed and I like seeing them again and talking to them again even though everything is different. I think that's the difference...is somewhere with that person there was some small connection on a deeper level. And eventhough time has separated interaction between us, that connection is still there and makes it easier to pick up right where we left off.
    "I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference."

    Robert Frost

  3. #23
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    I suppose if an INFJ has a lot of internal securities, he/she might be less apt to hold an objective/empathetic viewpoint about the intent behind your behaviors/actions, however personally, as I crave connection and mutual understanding in all relationships, I tend to clarify- even over clarify with people, regarding motivations behind the things they say and what their personal meaning is. I don't want to misunderstand, take offense, and pull up the drawbridge/lower the gates, and leave someone standing outside, scratching their head saying, "wtf did I do?!" I've been on the other end of such misunderstandings, albeit rarely & only really with emotionally unbalanced people, but regardless, it's unpleasant to feel misunderstood, and I've lived most of my life that way in some aspect or another, and it's something I'd never want to inadvertently do to someone else.

    The defensive responses you mention immediately reminded me of the few ISFJs in my life. A few other Sensing types as well. I'm basing this generalization on my overall narrow scope of experience, however, so I won't declare it holds any truth. Just possibility of a pattern, here. They seem to harp on word usage moreso than the intuitives I've come across. Arguing/focusing attention on semantics vs. syntax; not seeing the forest for the trees, etc.

    I can understand how one could easily take offense/misinterpret when they're only focusing on one small segment of the whole. This doesn't seem to correlate with INFJs & other iNtuitives generally being "global learners." I know that, for me, at least, that generalization applies to how I analyze the world around me. I need the whole picture to process and interpret overall meaning. At least, that's what I'm most comfortable with.
    Well, this is more the thing that I'm talking about. It's not that she took offense at all those examples that I gave, which she might not have (I know she did for some, but for others she is just so inexpressive that I couldn't know for sure). It's rather that, in forming an explanation for her intermittently cold or reserved communication with me, I cited these as things that she could have cumulatively added up over time to infer that I didn't like her that much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    However, Sensors are generally most comfortable learning sequentially, more linear, thus bringing more analytical focus to clear, concrete details (like word usage or specific behaviors during specific instances), as opposed to seeking patterns within the chaos like iNtuitives.

    Not that Sensors are incapable of intuiting, it's just not their natural preference for taking in data. And vice versa.. like I said, it's all a general spectrum. And based on the overall picture you've offered, along with my own interactions with them, she seems more ISFJ to me than INFJ...
    Well her problem with word usage comes mostly from her strong belief in the ability of words to have deep impact on our consciousnesses, as she believes that language is what undergirds our perceptions of reality. Yes, she's one of those language = everything people. But I seriously don't think she's a sensor, and mostly because her way of thinking (or what she expresses of it) is so abstract. She internalizes the philosophical writings of philosophers such as Hegel or Derrida and tells us that they made perfect sense to her (not in a boasting way but because they described things in words that she personally intuited at earlier times during her life). And she doesn't do sequences (literally, she has an aversion to writers who are too linear).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    Having to rebuild everytime you hang out, unlike your interaction with your INTJ friend, denotes a kind of linear processing of interacting, I think. Intuitives are ok with the mental fireworks. It may take awhile for an INFJ to get to know/trust you, but once you have that, you're in. You don't have to go back over familiarizing yourselves with the details just because of things like time and distance. You get the big picture, and that's all that counts.
    Well, the issue is that I don't think she trusts me (and I don't trust her, but I don't trust anyone, not even the INTJ, so that's not the only factor). Also others here have confirmed that the 'rebuilding the relationship' thing applies to them and their interactions with INFJs as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    If she is an ISFJ, then it seems like an INTP would be at a significant disadvantage when it comes to fluid communication. Ultimately I suppose it would come down to whether or not you have the patience & will to work toward overcoming these mental language barriers.. and if she's willing to acknowledge them and do so, as well.

    Otherwise it doesn't sound like either of you benefit much, overall, from a friendship. It's about connection; not simply appreciation of differences, but learning from them. This applies to every type, but that kinda goes without saying, I figure.
    Of course, but in describing the problem I have omitted the positive stuff, which probably leads to your interpretation of an overall negative picture. I very frequently find that her perspective is helpful, and I value the way that she thinks. And she appreciates my joking if it is more tame and not aimed at her.

    My problem is explaining the cause of the intermittent drops and spikes in our communication, particularly at extremes like after a vacation or long period of time without interacting.
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  4. #24
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Well her problem with word usage comes mostly from her strong belief in the ability of words to have deep impact on our consciousnesses, as she believes that language is what undergirds our perceptions of reality. Yes, she's one of those language = everything people. But I seriously don't think she's a sensor, and mostly because her way of thinking (or what she expresses of it) is so abstract. She internalizes the philosophical writings of philosophers such as Hegel or Derrida and tells us that they made perfect sense to her (not in a boasting way but because they described things in words that she personally intuited at earlier times during her life). And she doesn't do sequences (literally, she has an aversion to writers who are too linear).
    definitely NOT an S.

    derrida: intertextuality, absence/presence, deconstruction, sign me up! sructures sign and play in the discourse of the human sciences is a great article. "the center is not the center." tell her to check out deleuze, he's by far the most interesting, cleanest thinking continental philosopher. he fixes everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Well, the issue is that I don't think she trusts me (and I don't trust her, but I don't trust anyone, not even the INTJ, so that's not the only factor). Also others here have confirmed that the 'rebuilding the relationship' thing applies to them and their interactions with INFJs as well.

    My problem is explaining the cause of the intermittent drops and spikes in our communication, particularly at extremes like after a vacation or long period of time without interacting.
    so many causes. lack of trust. insecurity. difficulty with knowing where she stands with you. i have trouble with intp at times myself, the lack of tangible (read: expressed) feeling frustrates me and i have to have enough of my own to carry me thru the interaction. if i don't, i go elsewhere.

    infj can be a very very moody bunch. we can be very reticent. we have a wide range of internal experience and as such we can be found in many very different places within our own interior. things change very quickly for us, yet it doesn't show on the outside. sometimes (ok ok often) i just need someone else to thaw me out.

    but this is usually not their (intps) forte. building trust and warmth is not always natural with them bc our primary process for doing this is Fe. and this, the expression of feeling, body language, emotional communication, etc, is usually underdeveloped for intp.

    i enjoy intps bc they have often have an organized conceptual environment and a wide and diverse knowledge base. plus i can connect dots in huge clusters and still be coherent to them. but i spend time with them generally more when i am feeling expansive and want to converse mentally. learn and explore something. i am too emotionally scattered at other times, and we are not well-equipped infj + intp to deal with that aspect of life. which for me is often the most pressing.

    with that said, when you need to catch up or kinda go thru the thaw-out process, alcohol works. go out for drinks, comradery flows easily.

  5. #25
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Well, this is more the thing that I'm talking about. It's not that she took offense at all those examples that I gave, which she might not have (I know she did for some, but for others she is just so inexpressive that I couldn't know for sure). It's rather that, in forming an explanation for her intermittently cold or reserved communication with me, I cited these as things that she could have cumulatively added up over time to infer that I didn't like her that much.



    Well her problem with word usage comes mostly from her strong belief in the ability of words to have deep impact on our consciousnesses, as she believes that language is what undergirds our perceptions of reality. Yes, she's one of those language = everything people. But I seriously don't think she's a sensor, and mostly because her way of thinking (or what she expresses of it) is so abstract. She internalizes the philosophical writings of philosophers such as Hegel or Derrida and tells us that they made perfect sense to her (not in a boasting way but because they described things in words that she personally intuited at earlier times during her life). And she doesn't do sequences (literally, she has an aversion to writers who are too linear).



    Well, the issue is that I don't think she trusts me (and I don't trust her, but I don't trust anyone, not even the INTJ, so that's not the only factor). Also others here have confirmed that the 'rebuilding the relationship' thing applies to them and their interactions with INFJs as well.



    Of course, but in describing the problem I have omitted the positive stuff, which probably leads to your interpretation of an overall negative picture. I very frequently find that her perspective is helpful, and I value the way that she thinks. And she appreciates my joking if it is more tame and not aimed at her.

    My problem is explaining the cause of the intermittent drops and spikes in our communication, particularly at extremes like after a vacation or long period of time without interacting.
    Yeah, the ISFJ thing was more of a hypothesis than an actual interpretation/conclusion. I wasn't sure I had the whole picture in front of me to work through.. ha, yeah, and the poetry thing did throw me off a bit, because it's incredibly abstract [not that sensing types can't be poets ]. Thanks for further elaborating.

    Now I can see that it's less of a difference in how the info's being taken in (the whole N vs S thing I meandered into), and more of a perception/security issue compromising the interpretation of the situation. I can definitely relate to that.. I used to have a lot of rejection/trust type issues, so I'd misinterpret people's intents/feelings toward me out of my own insecurities. Hard to pick up where you left off when the foundation feels shaky on both ends, and doubly difficult to address that issue at times, because of the trust thing.

    Looking back on my own interpersonal relationships, I've also experienced the build/rebuilding with certain friends. A few I pick up right where we left off, and others, we have a strange transitional phase of getting reacquainted/comfortable with one another again, and I suppose it's because I didn't have the whole picture of the person beforehand, to an extent, didn't have sufficient time to build a sense of trust/that deeper bond. The only way I got around that was trying to keep up a more consistent line of communication, so I could get that whole picture, have at least some sort of foundation. It's still tricky from time to time.

    I also have friends who might assume I've lost interest in our friendship because of intermittent interactions. Happened a lot when I took on more classes/work hrs/was in theatre productions. Because I'm really uncomfortable with the idea of hurting my friends' feelings inadvertently, I got into the habit of mentioning it to them beforehand if I knew something was coming up specifically that might take priority to interpersonal stuff (not in like, a condescending or pacifying way, just kind of offhand, not directly relating my busy schedule to conflicts). Or, I'd mention that sort of thing immediately upon seeing them again, so I could offer them a clear picture to start with. Making that adjustment on my part usually makes things go a little smoother. I elaborate on whatever I've been up to that's consumed my time/attention, and also express that it's great to see them again, etc. Then they tend to let their guard down and discuss the same kind of stuff, and we're off and running at that point, firing ideas back and forth, and enjoying ourselves, building trust/intimacy.
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  6. #26
    Badoom~ Skyward's Avatar
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    Ah,. that makes a lot of sense, the 'building/rebuilding' thing always seems to happen when I'm focused on making a friendship, not when I'm just moseying around mentally. The friends I make are all because I am mentally comfortable with them (And their family, at this age parents still decide a lot of the rules). And I'm more comfortable moseying (I'm highly P, I always store INFP on tests)

    I now understand more of how I reciprocate vibes I get from people. There's a person I talked to some that I usually was less patient with, her saw the sharp edge of my personality more often because he was a lot less sensitive to how people felt. (INTx I think) - My brother gets the sharp edge a lot too (He's likely an ISTJ)
    'Imperfection is beauty, madness is genius and its better to be absolutely ridiculous than absolutely boring.' - Marilyn Monroe

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  7. #27
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    definitely NOT an S.

    derrida: intertextuality, absence/presence, deconstruction, sign me up! sructures sign and play in the discourse of the human sciences is a great article. "the center is not the center." tell her to check out deleuze, he's by far the most interesting, cleanest thinking continental philosopher. he fixes everything.
    Yeah, we actually have a seminar together that involves some Deleuze reading. She was already familiar with some of his work from before as well. I constantly bitch about this stuff because, for the life of me, I cannot understand WTF that guy is talking about. I remember one day she got all worked up because another one of our professors made the joke that Heidegger's (another one of her heroes) thesis can be boiled down to the proposition that "the truth rhymes." I thought it was funny, even though I don't know WTF he's talking about either.

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    so many causes. lack of trust. insecurity. difficulty with knowing where she stands with you. i have trouble with intp at times myself, the lack of tangible (read: expressed) feeling frustrates me and i have to have enough of my own to carry me thru the interaction. if i don't, i go elsewhere.
    Yeah, these are all possibilities. I don't really think it's insecurity...she gets along great with an ENTP mutual acquaintance (who is a derisive smart ass all the time), but there's something about his level of snide-ness that isn't as mocking or abrasive as mine. If she were insecure she'd probably be consistently that way with everyone. It's just me that she exhibits this ambivalent behavior towards, though (while strangely it's just her in my case as well).

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    infj can be a very very moody bunch. we can be very reticent. we have a wide range of internal experience and as such we can be found in many very different places within our own interior. things change very quickly for us, yet it doesn't show on the outside. sometimes (ok ok often) i just need someone else to thaw me out.

    but this is usually not their (intps) forte. building trust and warmth is not always natural with them bc our primary process for doing this is Fe. and this, the expression of feeling, body language, emotional communication, etc, is usually underdeveloped for intp.
    No, not my forte unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it). And yeah, she is certainly moody, but she usually apologizes for it later if she recognizes that during her mood she was unintentionally shitting on everyone else in her vicinity (which I find to be an absolutely adorable trait, her hyper-conscientiousness).

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i enjoy intps bc they have often have an organized conceptual environment and a wide and diverse knowledge base. plus i can connect dots in huge clusters and still be coherent to them. but i spend time with them generally more when i am feeling expansive and want to converse mentally. learn and explore something. i am too emotionally scattered at other times, and we are not well-equipped infj + intp to deal with that aspect of life. which for me is often the most pressing.
    Eh, she's very anti-analytical, but we usually get on fine talking about intellectual ideas. I usually humble myself (she's better read on some topics important to the field) to the point that it makes my "arguing" into more of a friendly inquiry, so this works out.

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    with that said, when you need to catch up or kinda go thru the thaw-out process, alcohol works. go out for drinks, comradery flows easily.
    She doesn't drink. I do, but when I loosen up I tend to lose control over my ability to check my making-fun-of-people tendency, so I don't think this would help me with her too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    Stuff about friendship re-building
    Well, it makes me feel better to know that this is something that's not unusual for an INFJ. Now I just have to find out exactly what it is about my behavior that causes her to act like this. I'll have to start by changing different aspects one-at-a-time to determine which one it is, though she'll definitely know something's up when I start coming off all warm and friendly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skyward View Post
    I now understand more of how I reciprocate vibes I get from people. There's a person I talked to some that I usually was less patient with, her saw the sharp edge of my personality more often because he was a lot less sensitive to how people felt. (INTx I think) - My brother gets the sharp edge a lot too (He's likely an ISTJ)
    What is this sharp edge of which you speak?
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  8. #28
    WTF is this dude saying? A Schnitzel's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what to say. Most of the INFJs I know are good to hang around because I can use my sense of humour indiscriminately without worrying about their feelings since they can understand when I am joking.
    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    sheesh humans! for realz

  9. #29
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Schnitzel View Post
    I'm not sure what to say. Most of the INFJs I know are good to hang around because I can use my sense of humour indiscriminately without worrying about their feelings since they can understand when I am joking.
    Well, I kind of hate retreating to this truism, as people frequently do, but not all people of the same type behave the same way. So I can only respond by congratulating you on your great luck in finding such cool and understanding INFJs. Congratulations!
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  10. #30
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    So I have recently (within the past six months) become kind-of friends with someone whom I believe to be INFJ. She has a quiet, sober exterior, is sensitive to words (meaning she will get upset by the phrasing of something, even if she knows that the intent behind the words is benign), does not appreciate my joking or ribbing at her playfully, and is basically a super-nice, conscientious person (though admittedly a little over-anxious and anal). .
    well, i might have missed someone's quote before mine, but have you considered she might be 'infp'? i find them to be a bit more 'sensitive' and 'over-anxious' than the infjs i know, including myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I jokingly ridicule everything and everyone while in her presence. Why, then, would that bother her (the phrasing of the argument was intended to purposely goad people, and thus used exaggerated levels of sarcasm)? This same sort of thing has happened before, many times (with the whole arguments thing, and her continuous misconstrual of my intentionally playful communication as being serious).
    i don't mean to be flippant, but just reading this annoys me. i can't imagine being around this behavior, especially in a group setting, which i find annoying anyway. in a group, i just wanna get whatever we have to do accomplished, and i would see innapropriate joking as, well, inappropriate, and counterproductive. if i were expecting it each time, which i would come to do if it was repetitive, i would go into the setting anticipating being annoyed which would make me appear more aloof and distant than normal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Also, regarding (2), I'm not sure if it's my lack of initiation (of conversation, even, sometimes), but I get the sense that she doesn't always like me.
    i always find something about people that i like, but if their behavior annoys me, i will exude that in my body language because i am extremely honest and in sync. yet, because i care excessively about people's feelings, i will not directly say anything, unless i/or my values are pushed too far.

    basically, i love people on a one-on-one basis. because of my razor-sharp efficiency, i may not always seem warm or interested in the feelings of people, especially in a group setting. but get me alone and i will be my true, warm self.

    also, i LOVE a sense of humor, even biting and cutting and brutal, but, again, in the appropriate setting. and i pick up where i left off with people all the time without having to reinvent the relationship.
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