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  1. #31
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    When adults do nothing to stop bullies (and in fact often support the bullying type culture), then what should children do, sit around have a bleeding heart for those who bully them? If someone can find a way to take a bully down and do what the adults around them refuse to do, take care of the situation, how can they be faulted?
    I believe the correct response is to tell them it isn't appropriate, then beat the crap out of them the next time it happens. Standing up is the correct response.

    The incorrect version of this is to "turn the tables" - to do it behind their back, etc. Standing up to them is a net positive solution as it tends to end the bullying as well as offer some feedback to the bully, hopefully ending the results.

    At that point, the ones that are really guilty are the ones that support the bully after he has been stood up against. I don't see any real excuse for their behaviour.

  2. #32
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaveri View Post
    I started a thread on another forum about several subjects. One of the questions was: "Is it justified to perceive [NF] idealism negatively as an arrogant, patronizing, hypocritical and naive attitude, as some people do?"
    Personally, I don't think that's very nice.
    Why should a person be offended by idealism?

    But I guess because I am idealistic, I like idealism.

  3. #33
    Member Arandur's Avatar
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    Being as I've had to put up with two disgustingly idealistic close friends for a very long time, I can't say I'm very fond of idealism. I think it's the epitome of naivete, though I'm sure there are idealistically-minded folk out there who don't conform to my disgruntled generalization.
    "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss

  4. #34
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    I have always stood up to bullies.
    When I was in the 3rd grade, we had a troubled boy move to our school - Marcel.
    he bullied a lot of the kids, including me.
    One day, on the way home from school,
    he pulled the hat off my head, filled it with mud and threw it in the woods.
    I felt helpless when he bullied me.

    But one day I saw him bullying one of the boys -
    (unliked, made fun of, wimpy boy)
    He had chased him up a road, throwing rocks at him.
    The boy was crying.
    I went right up to Marcel the bully.
    I pushed him, I yelled at him, and I told him to stop it!
    He left.

    I've always been proud of myself for that.
    Actually, I don't remember Marcel messing with me again after that either.

    An NTs biggest fear is being taken advantage of.
    Perhaps that is what made me feel it was so wrong for the bully to overpower the other boy that way.
    Unfair advantage. Just wrong.

  5. #35
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arandur View Post
    Being as I've had to put up with two disgustingly idealistic close friends for a very long time, I can't say I'm very fond of idealism. I think it's the epitome of naivete, though I'm sure there are idealistically-minded folk out there who don't conform to my disgruntled generalization.
    Why would you have to put up with friends you dislike?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #36
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arandur View Post
    Being as I've had to put up with two disgustingly idealistic close friends for a very long time, I can't say I'm very fond of idealism. I think it's the epitome of naivete, though I'm sure there are idealistically-minded folk out there who don't conform to my disgruntled generalization.
    I know I'm naïve.
    When I am too naïve or too idealistic,
    I try to incorporate the advice of the people in my life who have more common sense than I.

    Yet sometimes I am driven to attempt my ideal anyway - just in case it works.
    So I can enjoy the pleasure of it.

  7. #37
    Member Arandur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Why would you have to put up with friends you dislike?
    I don't dislike them as a whole. I just dislike how they let their idealism run their lives. Because of it, they're going down a self-destructive path hand-in-hand that, no matter what I say to them, they won't listen to a logical word I say to try and turn them from it.

    I guess it's through my frustration that I dislike their idealism, simply because I can't save them from it.
    "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss

  8. #38
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arandur View Post
    I don't dislike them as a whole. I just dislike how they let their idealism run their lives. Because of it, they're going down a self-destructive path hand-in-hand that, no matter what I say to them, they won't listen to a logical word I say to try and turn them from it.

    I guess it's through my frustration that I dislike their idealism, simply because I can't save them from it.
    I think that normally cures itself most of the way by the mid-twenties. It never totally goes away, but we go cynical fairly easily because we are so idealistic.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  9. #39
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    I think idealists have their place.

    We pragmatists (particularly INTJs) keep everything effective and efficient. We do the dirty work that makes things happen and give idealists their safe comfortable lives. In return, they keep us in check from going overboard. It doesn't seem like much, but it is important.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  10. #40
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I think that normally cures itself most of the way by the mid-twenties. It never totally goes away, but we go cynical fairly easily because we are so idealistic.
    So sadly true.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

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