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  1. #11
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    By help, do you mean participate in the bullying? Because Kaveri has already revealed that the NTs in question did in fact do so.
    No, those have different factors - namely disagreeableness and neuroticism (and I believe, to some degree, extroversion in that passives are normally introverted, as are the victims). So there is a cross section - but the other factor would be that those that are bullied are much more likely to bully themselves.

    I was only referring to the part of the OP;

    I want to understand this "patronizing, arrogant, hypocritical, naiive" viewpoint and develop my idealism so that I can use it in a truly positive way. I really don't want to hurt anyone in the process of acting on my idealism, but I don't want to give up on it, either. Are these accusations mere intentionally discouraging backbiting, or are they actually justified? as it related to NTs... more or less, justification of their stance. (Of course, this would be more involved in a non-MBTI discussion, but within the personality confines, the observers are linked ITxP, with TP being dominant).

    Not that I can't see NTs (especially NTPs) and an INFP quickly and mutually derail even an impersonal discussion about bullying.
    I would seperate the two; in person, the TPs are the most likely to do nothing either way; online they are more likely to comment from the side as there is no particular aversion to participation. Likewise, the degree of empathy is lower online, making T's (another FFM argument goes here) more likely to bully without even realising it.

  2. #12
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I would seperate the two; in person, the TPs are the most likely to do nothing either way; online they are more likely to comment from the side as there is no particular aversion to participation. Likewise, the degree of empathy is lower online, making T's (another FFM argument goes here) more likely to bully without even realising it.
    True. But let's give our temperament the benefit of the doubt in this particular situation, shall we, instead of possibly faultily taking the behavior of said NTs upon our head? I worry that not doing so practically guarantees an an unnecessary NT/NF clash.

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaveri View Post
    Sorry, in my mother-tongue the word that means "naive" is spelled "naiivi", so that must have messed me up.
    I wasn't making fun of your spelling. I make plenty of mistakes myslef. "naiive" is sometimes used in web-geek speak to be mean "very naive".

    Sorry. If that set the tone for your reading of my reply, may I suggest trying to read it again. I was actually trying to be helpful, not mean.

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  4. #14
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    True. But let's give our temperament the benefit of the doubt in this particular situation, shall we, instead of possibly faultily taking the behavior of said NTs upon our head? I worry that not doing so practically guarantees an an unnecessary NT/NF clash.
    T/F clash. The N/S doesn't have a huge impact on this... (I think... Gah. Too many papers, so little time.)

    The manifestation of group think and group assault can be mitigated by defenders - something that is generally absent on these boards. Want to guess which traits those are?

    Consider how many people were, in recent history, willing to stand up for a group or individual that is being called down by a bully.

    Yes. Exactly. Bully + followers + silent followers = exactly what is being talked about in the OP. Each of the three main parts is dominanted by some degree of IxTP (and neuroticism).

    Anyone can make the rational choice to identify and defuse it, so it is a choice. Group dynamics, however, state that without checks, this is likely to develop.

  5. #15
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    (Is that the swooshing sound of something going over my head I hear? :confused

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    The manifestation of group think and group assault can be mitigated by defenders - something that is generally absent on these boards. Want to guess which traits those are?
    The opposite traits - E, F and J?

    Consider how many people were, in recent history, willing to stand up for a group or individual that is being called down by a bully.
    Care to specify?

  6. #16
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Honestly, I think it's unlikely that an NT would be a bully. NTs can do and say things that some people would perceive as bullying, but in reality they probably just wanted to determine something, and were just unaware/unconcerned of the emotional effect they're having. Excepting that I have seen ENTJ's behave in a bullying manner logically and bluntly. As a counterpoint, I've seen ENFJ's manage to do far worse things to people passively, and while making themselves look good. As far as INTPs, INTJs, and ENTPs, many of them seem argumentative at times, but will usually respond well to any sort of logical argument you can throw at their position, feeling compelled to refute it, accept it, or trivialize it.

    But seriously, most NT's (especially INT's) I've known are actually very fragile emotionally. They behave and believe in a rather detached way, but actually seem a bit helpless and reactive emotionally, especially in an emotionally charged situation. They don't see themselves that way, but I think they are more often than not.

    Does that make sense?

  7. #17
    Wait, what? Varelse's Avatar
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    ^ Yes, makes sense, as much as I wouldn't like to admit it. Seems like some NFs can find my weak spot there and just mess with it. :steam:
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  8. #18
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    The opposite traits - E, F and J?
    Mostly F, actually... The main concern is that the dominant factors are instability and disagreeableness, both for victims and for bullies, with victims being less concientous. The next grouping of factors is for the observers/non-participants, which is introversion and independence (which could be construed somewhat from MBTI, but is probably better left alone).

    You have a huge grouping, even within weak correlations to MBTI, to IxTP with negative factors.

    But as I said, this is still a choice. I learnt that a long time ago... one can choose not to be a victim and one can choose to be a defender. Sadly, I learnt that lesson way too late, but I make a point out acting as a defender where possible now. Tendencies don't need to be conclusive at all, but being aware of them helps identify your own role in it.

    Care to specify?
    Probably not worth going into if you don't know... nothing interesting but just old history. If you are curious, send me a PM and I'll explain it there.

  9. #19
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Honestly, I think it's unlikely that an NT would be a bully. NTs can do and say things that some people would perceive as bullying, but in reality they probably just wanted to determine something, and were just unaware/unconcerned of the emotional effect they're having. Excepting that I have seen ENTJ's behave in a bullying manner logically and bluntly. As a counterpoint, I've seen ENFJ's manage to do far worse things to people passively, and while making themselves look good. As far as INTPs, INTJs, and ENTPs, many of them seem argumentative at times, but will usually respond well to any sort of logical argument you can throw at their position, feeling compelled to refute it, accept it, or trivialize it.

    But seriously, most NT's (especially INT's) I've known are actually very fragile emotionally. They behave and believe in a rather detached way, but actually seem a bit helpless and reactive emotionally, especially in an emotionally charged situation. They don't see themselves that way, but I think they are more often than not.

    Does that make sense?
    No it doesn't make sense to me. Please explain. Emotionally fragile people tend to go on the defensive about their emotions than the emotionally secure. It seems to me they would be the perfect type to engage in bullying, to hide their weak spots.
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  10. #20
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    No it doesn't make sense to me. Please explain. Emotionally fragile people tend to go on the defensive about their emotions than the emotionally secure. It seems to me they would be the perfect type to engage in bullying, to hide their weak spots.
    Well, sometimes maybe. I'm not saying that there are no NT bullies. But usually, they aren't confident enough in their emotions to go on the defensive about them. They're more likely to either deal with them by worrying too much over them and becoming overwhelmed, or denying the influence of them. You can tell when either is happening.

    If something an NT does looks like bullying towards a Feeling type, it's probably just that they are paying attention to their argument and their logic, and not enough to the personal side. A feeling type might incorrectly interpret something as bullying, when it's really just obliviousness and apathy for emotional concerns, which violate the basis of the feeling type's reality, especially if they're among the stronger Feeling types.

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